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Read our primer articles on High Mileage Oil, Synthetic Oil and Kinematic Viscosity

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Oil Decision Time.

L lamontbdumontMember
This drama-queen cat fight isn't even remotely interesting anymore and I'm not sure if it was ever informative.

Use a fighting-grade oil & change every 3 months or use a high-quality syn (no PIB, no GrpIII, no plasticizer) and extend your drain based on hard data of some sort, or fall somewhere in between. It may all come down to how you drive your vehicle. Maybe there's not a one-size-fits-all solution? Maybe the path you choose is all a matter of personal and/or lifestyle preference and doesn't really say much about your moral or intellectual character?

Maybe any of those approaches, taken thoroughly & responsibly, will allow your engine to outlast the rest of your chassis?

Henry Ford used to send engineers to the junkyards buy & tear apart old Fords to see which parts were still in good shape. Then FoMoCo would design a less robust version for the next iteration. He didn't see the point of throwing quality away. I don't get the obsession with making sure the engine is pristine when the rest of the rusting hulk is towed to the junkyard.

If this is the most important thing you guys have to argue about, I'd trade problems with any of you straight up.
T trajanMember
It is not the place of the courts to declare a product garbage, The marketplace determined Yugos are garbage a decade ago or so.

I think this is what he meant to say: "Now send me ONE FACT that can in court of law prove beyond any doubt that YUGO is not a GARBAGE !!!


Synth oil is overkill for many apps. No reason to use it if your engine is not spec'd for it.

Good dino/synth oil, along with a reasonable OCI, along with the use of a good filter, and routine maintainenece, goes a long way towards sludge prevention. And a good engine design doesn't hurt either.

Isn't the oil's fault if you run extended drains. Or if you run the wrong viscosity. Or an obsolete spec.

Isn't the oil's fault if you don't fix those leaking head/intake maniflod gaskets. Or never check your PCV.

It isn't the oil's fault if you fail to check the dipstick.

It's the fault of the cheap nut who owns it.
Last edited by trajan
A adfd1Member
Seems at leat 3 of us agree using a qt of oil in 6K miles is no big deal, a qt in 4000 miles would be no big deal either. Try taking a new car in for warranty work and tell the service writer you used a qt of oil in 4000 miles and see what he tells you. They will do nothing unless they see an oil leak.

Imgaine what a Yugo dealer would have said back in the day? LOL

AD
I inhaliburtonMember
quote:
Originally posted by Deltona_Dave:
All engines use oil, just some more than others.

Around the year 1963 I got out of racing, sold my ride. I needed a cheap ride so bought a 1930 something Chev, had running boards, suicide doors, stick coming right out of the tranny, and a back seat that was like a sofa. Can't remember the year, but it cost me $50. Every Saturday I would drive to Yonge St. and Lawrence Ave. in Toronto to a gas station that sold bulk oil out of large steel drums for .90 per gallon. I went through a gallon of 30 weight oil every week.
C captainkirkMember
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
Kirk, I suggest you back off Lamont, he knows a lot more than you do. He has no agenda, and he's respected here. he's not considered a joke like you and your teacher are.

AD



Nothing against Lamont.

However,he is against anything better than status-quo for the typical "Grocery getter"-as he calls it!

I,on the other hand, have never settled for status quo,especially when there is something much better,and the norm has failed many motorists based on the facts,and history!!!
A adfd1Member
Shop cars, train station cars, grocery getters, or old beaters I always felt should get maintained but there is no point spending top $ on oil. Save the big $ oil for the best cars of the fleet. Besides in most applications the entire car will rot and fall apart long before the engine fails, unless the engine is a poor design or specifically calls for synthetic oil. This has been proven time and time again. Most car buffs spend more than they have to for oil and filters. Proper maint, and proper intervals for changing oil is the key to long engine life.

AD
T trajanMember
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
Shop cars, train station cars, grocery getters, or old beaters I always felt should get maintained but there is no point spending top $ on oil. Save the big $ oil for the best cars of the fleet. Besides in most applications the entire car will rot and fall apart long before the engine fails, unless the engine is a poor design or specifically calls for synthetic oil. This has been proven time and time again. Most car buffs spend more than they have to for oil and filters. Proper maint, and proper intervals for changing oil is the key to long engine life.

AD


It has been proven time and time and ......... time, again.

But due to the reasons pointed out by BLK above, it just does not register with some.

All this nonsense that conventional oil is bad, or causes sludge, is just that, nonsense.

Cars still come factory filled with it. Oil companies still make it. Millions of cars still run on it.

Using synth oil along with 3-5k oil changes or when your engine doesn't call for it is like using 93oct in an engine that calls for 87.

Certainly using synth in a Yugo is throwing money away.
A adfd1Member
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:

It has been proven time and time and ......... time, again.

But due to the reasons pointed out by BLK above, it just does not register with some.

All this nonsense that conventional oil is bad, or causes sludge, is just that, nonsense.

Cars still come factory filled with it. Oil companies still make it. Millions of cars still run on it.

Using synth oil along with 3-5k oil changes or when your engine doesn't call for it is like using 93oct in an engine that calls for 87.

Certainly using synth in a Yugo is throwing money away.


I agree and time and time again my father and uncle have proven it to me. Synthetic oil has its place but it is not for everyone. Especially in the beater class of cars.

I'd like to add to your comment about using synthetic oil in a Yugo is throwing away money. Using anything in a Yugo including gas was throwing away money. Simply buying one was a waste of cash. There were cars in the day with 100,000 miles or more on them that were still better than a new Yugo. My dad told me a funny story about a test drive he did in one of them. Garbage/Junk was a compliment!

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L lamontbdumontMember
Current mineral engine oil formulations are hardly 'status quo' compared to those of decades past. Additive & base oil technology are constantly improving. Used properly, minerals will serve a great majority of automotive applications effectively.

Synthetics have their place, but that place is primarily in industrial formulations, which is where the real severe service applications live. I have a real hard time envisioning a unit that typically operates maybe 4-5 hours out of 24 as 'severe service', the psychology of marketing notwithstanding.

Sorry if I hurt the feelings of any latent adolescents when I call their dream supercars 'grocery-getters', but that's the reality. Severity of service is about actual service, not engineering. You're most likely running to the Wawa more often than you are running in the Paris to Dakar road rally.
E enochcaMember
walah........after 15pages should we discuss this 4life again?.......
enoch

QUOTE]Originally posted by Captain Kirk:
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
Kirk, I suggest you back off Lamont, he knows a lot more than you do. He has no agenda, and he's respected here. he's not considered a joke like you and your teacher are.

AD



Nothing against Lamont.

However,he is against anything better than status-quo for the typical "Grocery getter"-as he calls it!

I,on the other hand, have never settled for status quo,especially when there is something much better,and the norm has failed many motorists based on the facts,and history!!![/QUOTE]
R robertcMember
LS-9 - Syn Because it is my pet CPA CFOs and she wants it that way

Hemi - Syn, Because I want it that way to make me feel better about my extended drain intervals. In this case, it pays.

'Glide. Syn in the crankcaase because it is air cooled and hot. Needs it. The other 2 reservoirs, mineral or semi syn gear lube. Good for 5,000 miles crank and 20,000 in primary and tranny.

Kids cars. -Good mineral. They need the life experience of keeping up with it.

Lawn crap, are you kidding me!.....

But, bottom line, Lamont is right. They're grocery getters except for that few weeks a year when my truck goes to the beach and lives in 4 WD full time.
Last edited by robertc
L lamontbdumontMember
Given that there is a significant personal preference aspect to all of this, there are plenty of legitmate holes to poked in my personal preference (perfection being conceptually impossible in our current sphere of existence). I'm just not sure I've read any of them in this thread.

Air-cooled engines, depending on how they are used, could approach 'severe', as could the vehicle used for two solid weeks in 4WD. (Did I hear it would be in sand?)
R robertcMember
quote:
Originally posted by Lamont B Dumont:
......

Air-cooled engines, depending on how they are used, could approach 'severe', as could the vehicle used for two solid weeks in 4WD. (Did I hear it would be in sand?)


Yep, a nice little secluded beach. My actual max is 9 days with no asphalt.

But sooner or later, you run out of something and have to go to town.

And a few hours later, back to Nirvana
C captainkirkMember
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lamont B Dumont:

Synthetics have their place, but that place is primarily in industrial formulations, which is where the real severe service applications live. I have a real hard time envisioning a unit that typically operates maybe 4-5 hours out of 24 as 'severe service', the psychology of marketing notwithstanding.
---------------------------
Most vehicles on the road are considered(by the pros) to be driven severe,contrary to what you just said!!
-------------------------------------------

Industrial being the primary place for synthetic you say??

Where is that coming from?? Many heavy duty industrial applications use mineral oil because of their very massive oil sump capacities,oil pre-lube/pre-heat systems,fuel pre-heat systems,by-pass filtration systems,overall heavy duty design, and heavy duty/more than adequate cooling systems...all of which allows for mineral oil.

Industrial applications benefit from continuous run cycles,no dry starts,no condensation issues,no endless warm up/cool down thermal cycles,etc,etc. Massive diesel engines in industry don't really need synthetic the way a modern day hot running car engine does.

I bet this ship in the link below didn't have synthetic oil......

http://www.solomonstarnews.com...ns-out-of-engine-oil

Railroad engine oil is not synthetic..

http://www.chevron.com/product...EngineOilreprint.pdf


Ironically,it's the smaller applications that are far harder on oil than say...a ship or even a train engine.

My lawn mower,and pressure washer manuals recommend synthetic oil. Many new cars are coming from the factory with synthetic oil! All of the sludging issues and lawsuits were with the auto industry,not typically industrial.

I don't know what world you are living in,but I live in the real world and deal with real world facts....NOT OPINIONS!!! I have posted dozens of links to show the proof. Here is another!!

http://www.industrysearch.com....ill-your-engine-4536


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lamont B Dumont:
Current mineral engine oil formulations are hardly 'status quo' compared to those of decades past.
------------------------------------------

Lamont,By definition,and by their own admission,current mineral oil(API))........IS STATUS QUO--AT ANY GIVEN MOMENT IN HISTORY!

There is no other definition for mineral oil,because it meets minimum standards..................therefore it is just that........status quo!!

The definition of status quo is not,nor never was... the referencing of past-to-present like you are doing with the statement.."decades past".
Last edited by captainkirk
L lamontbdumontMember
quote:
Industrial being the primary place for synthetic you say??
Where is that coming from??"


Just a wild guess, absolutely nothing to do with 35 years in the lube business in assignments ranging from analytical testing, formulation, technical service, quality control, quality assurance, blending, bulk shipping, on the bench, in the office, on the dock, on the loading rack and other stuff and places I only dimly remember now.

As far as what gets used (and mis-used) where, 10 years of tech service gave me the least useful knowledge. Back in those days, industrial problems were work. Personal automotive 'problems' were comic relief. (Since you appear pretty humorless, I feel obliged to reveal there was sarcasm in the above.)

quote:
Industrial applications benefit from continuous run cycles,no dry starts,no condensation issues,no endless warm up/cool down thermal cycles,etc,etc. Massive diesel engines in industry don't really need synthetic the way a modern day hot running car engine does.


There is less a one-size-fits-all description of industrial applications than for personal automotive applications. You are truly displaying an astounding ignorance here. We could fill the CRC Handbook of Lubrication with only what you don't know and it wouldn't be much thinner.

Wind turbine gearboxes (actually most industrial gearboxes, period) down-hole hydraulics, a significant chunk of refinery circulating systems, anything on the deck of ship, and that's just what comes quickly to mind while still on my first cup of coffee.

As you rant, synthetics are being developed for gas turbines. Synthetics are making inroads in paper machine applications. Because of the 'out-of-sight-out-of-mind' aspect, lots of conventional hydraulic systems are going syn (yeah, no condensation or stop-start issues there).

quote:
All of the sludging issues and lawsuits were with the auto industry,not typically industrial.


Because cars are emotional (like you) and industrial stuff is data driven. When a significant industrial component fails, there is an investigation. If the lube failed, the supplier typically just pays for the part, rather than paying for the part and a bunch of lawyers. In my experience (10 years of tech service) it's typically a lubrication failure (misapplication of some sort), not a lubricant failure. When there are lawsuits, they don't make much news. Keep listening to the AM Top 40 station; I'm going to listen to the underground college station.

quote:
,By definition,and by their own admission,current mineral oil(API))........IS STATUS QUO--AT ANY GIVEN MOMENT IN HISTORY!


By that convoluted 'logic', so is any current synthetic. The impression you appear to be trying to convey is that development of mineral ceased when synthetics came out, which is either ignorant or disingenuous (a euphemism for 'you're lying').

quote:
There is no other definition for mineral oil,because it meets minimum standards..................therefore it is just that........status quo!!


If you want to be taken seriously, I first thought you needed to learn A LOT about lubricants and lubrication. Now it seems we need to pull back further. You need to learn a little about the English language first. By your inaccurate definition, synthetics can be mis-characterized as 'status quo' as well.

Shills are funny.
C captainkirkMember
quote:
Originally posted by Lamont B Dumont:
[QUOTE] Industrial being the primary place for synthetic you say??
Where is that coming from??"


Just a wild guess, absolutely nothing to do with 35 years in the lube business in assignments ranging from analytical testing, formulation, technical service, quality control, quality assurance, blending, bulk shipping, on the bench, in the office, on the dock, on the loading rack and other stuff and places I only dimly remember now.

As far as what gets used (and mis-used) where, 10 years of tech service gave me the least useful knowledge. Back in those days, industrial problems were work. Personal automotive 'problems' were comic relief. (Since you appear pretty humorless, I feel obliged to reveal there was sarcasm in the above.)

quote:
Industrial applications benefit from continuous run cycles,no dry starts,no condensation issues,no endless warm up/cool down thermal cycles,etc,etc. Massive diesel engines in industry don't really need synthetic the way a modern day hot running car engine does.


There is less a one-size-fits-all description of industrial applications than for personal automotive applications. You are truly displaying an astounding ignorance here. We could fill the CRC Handbook of Lubrication with only what you don't know and it wouldn't be much thinner.

Wind turbine gearboxes (actually most industrial gearboxes, period) down-hole hydraulics, a significant chunk of refinery circulating systems, anything on the deck of ship, and that's just what comes quickly to mind while still on my first cup of coffee.

As you rant, synthetics are being developed for gas turbines. Synthetics are making inroads in paper machine applications. Because of the 'out-of-sight-out-of-mind' aspect, lots of conventional hydraulic systems are going syn (yeah, no condensation or stop-start issues there).

quote:
All of the sludging issues and lawsuits were with the auto industry,not typically industrial.


Because cars are emotional (like you) and industrial stuff is data driven. When a significant industrial component fails, there is an investigation. If the lube failed, the supplier typically just pays for the part, rather than paying for the part and a bunch of lawyers. In my experience (10 years of tech service) it's typically a lubrication failure (misapplication of some sort), not a lubricant failure. When there are lawsuits, they don't make much news. Keep listening to the AM Top 40 station; I'm going to listen to the underground college station.

quote:
,By definition,and by their own admission,current mineral oil(API))........IS STATUS QUO--AT ANY GIVEN MOMENT IN HISTORY!


By that convoluted 'logic', so is any current synthetic. The impression you appear to be trying to convey is that development of mineral ceased when synthetics came out, which is either ignorant or disingenuous (a euphemism for 'you're lying').

quote:
There is no other definition for mineral oil,because it meets minimum standards..................therefore it is just that........status quo!!


If you want to be taken seriously, I first thought you needed to learn A LOT about lubricants and lubrication. Now it seems we need to pull back further. You need to learn a little about the English language first. By your inaccurate definition, synthetics can be mis-characterized as 'status quo' as well.

Shills are funny.

quote:
Lamont quoted:
Because cars are emotional (like you)...
-------------------------------------------------------



Now who's getting all emotional with that long meandering rant of yours.........is there a point in there somewhere?? I certainly made my point,and It sure struck a nerve I see!

I showed two industrial examples(ship/train) using mineral oil,and you get all huffy!!

By the way,you never did answer me when I asked what kind of lube you install in your "grocery getter",and how often you change it!

Prove to me that the API standards are NOT STATUS QUO! Your rant makes no sense,nor does it give an intelligible rebuttal. It was a well written rant,I'll give you that!!


Let's build on the fact that the API-standared IS.....STATUS QUO.....

http://motoroilbible.com/blog/...exos-motor-oil-spec/

QUOTE FROM LINK ABOVE...
"However, this is a giant leap from the currently accepted norm,"

http://www.performanceboats.co...owthread.php?t=66777

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_oil

"The American Petroleum Institute (API) sets minimum for performance standards for lubricants. "


quote:
There is no other definition for mineral oil,because it meets minimum standards..................therefore it is just that........status quo!!


Lamont quoted:
If you want to be taken seriously, I first thought you needed to learn A LOT about lubricants and lubrication. Now it seems we need to pull back further. You need to learn a little about the English language first. By your inaccurate definition, synthetics can be mis-characterized as 'status quo' as well.

Lamont...........Wanna Run that by me again! My inaccurate definition,and the English language you say. Really! You do speak and read English,so READ THIS!!!

A quote from the Article just to give you some insight!! "Disruptions in status quo often lead to improvements"

http://www.allbusiness.com/sci...logy/11507094-1.html

Lamont quoted...

Wind turbine gearboxes (actually most industrial gearboxes, period) down-hole hydraulics, a significant chunk of refinery circulating systems, anything on the deck of ship, and that's just what comes quickly to mind while still on my first cup of coffee.

Lamont,did you forget that fast? We are discussing motor oil,not gearboxes,hydraulics,and circulatory systems! Nice diversionary tactic! Maybe you should have had two cups of coffee before you posted!!

Lamont quoted:

"Personal automotive 'problems' were comic relief."

Comic relief!! The only thing comical is your theatrical posts,Lamont.

You must be smoking some really good cigarettes if you think that automotive problems are comical! I've never seen any comic relief when people get hit with the repair bill for their "grocery getter" at the service writers desk..... Unless of course,you happen to be the service writer,mechanic,or some guy named Lamont within earshot of the bill!! Is that your idea of comedy,Lamont! People are losing their homes,but a repair bill is comical?? SMOKE ANOTHER!



If you are satisfied with the minimum.........so-be-it! I desire something better than minimum!!
Last edited by captainkirk
T trajanMember
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamont B Dumont

Shills are funny.


That could be the quote of the year. I like that!

Like Abbott and Costello. Before my time, funny none the less.

AD


I don't know. The late Billy Mays was entertaining. Synlubbers and its defenders are just...... sad. Don't like it when you don't accept their word. Or question their extraordinary claims.....
Last edited by trajan
A adfd1Member
[QUOTE]

Is that what they do now in the U.S. Navy where you are........the minimum?? I bet not!

I like to go for the A+,and achieve a higher standard. I use the minimum standard simply as a starting point,not an ending point! I want the Best! What Do you want?

QUOTE]

My point is standards are set, people live up to them, exceed them or ship out. Pretty basic, if you don't make rank by a certain time, "the standard" or sooner, and decide to re-up they tell you thanks for serving, and ask you to leave. You meet "the standard", get rank by the time allocated for it or sooner, you stay. W/O that we'd have people who are sub-par, not good.

We all want the A+ Kirk, but is seems you and Miro are the only two people posting here who awarded yourselves an A+. Certainly not the API.

AD
L lamontbdumontMember
quote:
By the way,you never did answer me when I asked what kind of lube you install in your "grocery getter",and how often you change it!


You'd have to ask Sniffy that one. He'll tell you "Whatever Artie has in stock".

Um, I'm a fictional character, in case you failed to notice. As such I probably don't own a car. Ask my limo driver.

Final answer - irrevelant. In 40 years of driving, I've never lost a component prematurely due to lubricant failure. I must be using one of the many approaches that work.

And yes, the F-150, the Avalon (230K with no sludge issues to date in a NOTORIOUS engine) and the Miata are all grocery-getters, regular people cars used the way regular people use them. I have no pretentions that my daily drive to the office is the 24 Hours at Le Mans.

I save that sort of attention for my collection of quirky old bass guitars and my hot-wired '68 Fender Band Master, where the extra attention pays off in improved tonal quality.
T trajanMember
The only grade for synlube is an F-. Still after all these years a garage setup. Mail drops for addresses. False claims to operate in an area closed to the general public.

Can't even meet its own viscosity that it advertises. Unable to provide any verifiable data, yet defended by a misguided misanthrope who attacks anyone who questions it.

Not possible to get a grade of A if it can't even get a passing grade.
M mirokefurtMember
quote:
Trajan


You simply cannot handle the fact that BMW makes crapy cars, so you back to your unfounded and false claims attacks.

Why don’t you find ONE person in the WORLD that had a single problem with SynLube ?

Because NO ONE EVER DID HAVE any issue that is in 32 years of the SAME EXACT FORMULA, while all the other oil lube companies have changed all they make every 3 to 4 years !

Why BEACUSE the stuff they made before just did not cut it when API just slightly ups the MINIMUM bar for performance.

Why would NAVY MED order SynLube for their YAMAHA gen sets ? May be they want to kill everyone they operate on in emergency situations and want the gensets to fail so they do not have to finish the job !!!

ADFD1 can probably explain that one since he claims to be US Navy.
C captainkirkMember
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
Why would I bother Miro aka Fool. How about you tell us. And remember if you don't like the USA you can always leave.

BTW I am not US Navy. I proudly serve in the US Navy, the very best Navy in the World!

How about some proof the US Navy bought anything from you? Proof not some tall tale.

AD




AD. If you are really in the Navy,then you should be able to deny or confirm the Syn-lubed--YAHMAHA Genny!

BTW.......I can prove I use Synlube...if you ever swing on by sailor,you can check out all my vehicles.....and see for yourself there is Synlube in all the perfect running engines.
C captainkirkMember
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
Why would I bother Miro aka Fool. [QUOTE]


http://www.cars101.com/recalls.html

Apparently the 6 speed Subaru with API GL Oil are EXPLODING the transmissions and it already happened to quite few people in just under 3,000 miles !!!

Apparently there is major screw up in the M6 transmission and since so few people buy manuals (even in Subaru) they only just noticed that there are lube holes missing in the case to supply oil to one of the major bearings, so they MELT and EXPLODE.
[QUOTE]



Looks like the transmission issue is True....just like synlube. I have never seen Miro lie about anything. I only see you making false accusations.....all the time.

BTW......I too have never 'made' up any stories,and you have never been able to rebuttal any of my post because the truth cannot be discredited!!
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