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Read our primer articles on High Mileage Oil, Synthetic Oil and Kinematic Viscosity

quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:

Oh, how the mechanics at both the dealer and the place I deal with laughed it up when I pointed out this thread.....

And when they read about Yugos and synlube..... brought the house down.


Your insecurity and naiveté come shining through. Had to casually drop by the Beamership for reassurance. That must have been a knee slapper all right. We all wish that we could have been there to share.

Recess is over. Better run along now, or you will be late for cookies and juice.
Trajan quoted.

Mazda rotary engines spray oil into the chamber as well, and yet, he, or the other stooges, have nothing to say about it. But I digress.....

BK. quoted...
The mazda is different than yours. Piston engines spray(oil) the bottom of the piston crown,not the combustion chamber.

Trajan Quoted.....
[QUOTE ]Ahhhhhh. Thanks. I was thinking the top of the crown.[/QUOTE]


quote:
Originally posted by Miro Kefurt:

That indeed is the "crowning" statement that in [b]so few words explains it all !!!

And do not forget to spike the oil with PEP !!!

That is REALLY what all the mechanics were laughing about ..........



---------------------------------------------


I cannot believe that someone(Trajan),even after having been on these oil sites for many years now... actually thought that a 4-stroke gasoline powered piston engine......sprayed oil into the combustion chamber onto the piston crown for whatever reason. Like I said.......no mechanical aptitude whatsoever,and that statement really proves it!



///Hey Trajan....... gasoline is also injected into the crankcase.....to--(prevent sludge)....(LOL)///


When Trajan was talking about STOOGES
. ........he was unwittingly referring to himself...


-------------------------------------
Trajan quoted....

"Oh, how the mechanics at both the dealer and the place I deal with laughed it up when I pointed out this thread".....

Wow, TRAJAN..........I never go to any shops,because I never need to.......and now we find out you need not one,but TWO REPAIR SHOPS!!!!!!! WHAT KIND OF LEMON ARE YOU DRIVING??? No wonder the mechanics were laughing.................they saw it was pay-day again when you arrived and they were just overjoyed and couldn't stop laughing.......AGAIN!!!!!
Last edited by captainkirk
quote:
Originally posted by BLK98MK8LSC:
Regulations on VOC emissions here have made crankcase ventilation systems very effective moisture traps. CAFE standards are pushing manufacturers to spec lighter oils than they would otherwise use,even if only slightly. Non of these are deal breakers when all you have to do is change your oil to fix it. Forcing 100000 mile catalytic converter life at the expense of safe reliable engine wear protection and sabotaging older engines with mechanical valve trains is a piss poor use of government power,however well intentioned. The engineering responses to regulation are as varied as can be,some are successful,some not. BMW is not immune to this. The crank case ventilation system on some models can fail in very cold weather and suck all the crankcase oil into the intake manifold and cause engine destruction. Not the oils fault unless you count water trapped in it. When the water freezes the valve fails. These may be the failures your referring to.




All of the reasons stated is why it is ever more important to use the absolute best synthetics available,with the lowest Noack VOLATILITY NUMBERS....like SYNLUBE!

Many of the lubes,group III included,are still much to volatile.... almost 15%,and they simply burn off too much!

When these low quality lubes vaporize,not all of the vapors are burned off in the engine,like some would believe.

A portion of the vapors will precipitate out,especially when the engine is shut off,basically fogging the inside of the engine/emission components with oil and moisture,causing a sort of 'milkshake',that eventually chokes the engine to death in many cases!

This condition of 'fogging' occurs worse during the very hot summer seasons that cook off even more of the volatile oils into vapors,followed with fogging down a nice layer of oil,that the colder/damper winters eventually finish off with added moisture....creating the deadly milkshake syndrome,and then eventual engine death in some cases!

The engine,and emission systems are all clogged up and can't breathe,creating a vicious cycle that kills the engine!

NO AMOUNT OF 'ENGINE-FLUSHES' will fix.... the now clogged up emission ventilation system,the damage is done,and oil system flushes will not effect that system!!



By using a very low volatile,and high quality synthetic oil,this deadly cycle will never begin in the first place!

Remember,most of the sludge monsters(sludge lawsuits) occurred in the Northern,colder states.

Cars will also have sludge/varnish/coking,etc, in hot climates,so high quality synthetic is needed for sure in the heat!
Last edited by captainkirk
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:
Wow, TRAJAN..........I never go to any shops,because I never need to.......and now we find out you need not one,but TWO REPAIR SHOPS!!!!!!! WHAT KIND OF LEMON ARE YOU DRIVING??? No wonder the mechanics were laughing.................they saw it was pay-day again when you arrived and they were just overjoyed and couldn't stop laughing.......AGAIN!!!!!


Good catch, Kirk.

Those crack Beamership(s) service sales guys likely put him into an endless loop ARX cleaning cycle!

What a hoot!
You three want to attack me becaue I use the proper oil, fine.

You want to attack me becaue of a 1qt/6000 mile oil consumption, fine.

The people who design and build these engines don't have a problem with it.

The people who own these cars don't have a probelm with it.

The people who work on them don't have a problem with it.

No one, except you three, have a problem with it. Any of it.

Seperately, each of them have a wealth of experience you can't hope to match.

Together, it's so far ahead of yours that it you couldn't see it even using Hubble.

So, have at it, attack all you want. Whatever helps your collective inferiority complex, but you have neither the experience to bear listening to, or even a coherent position to come from. All you have is attacks. Poor ones at that.

My last post in this thread. Hopefully.
Last edited by trajan
Correction none of us have a problem with "it" as we do not own BMW, and nor do 82% of people who drive them, they know better they just LEASE BMW and the next one and next one.... NO worries NO concerns NO problems just making the $600 to $900 a month payments FOREVER……..

The few BMW "owners that get stuck with the second hand cars are those I truly feel sorry for!!!

Have you ever seen any BMW owner on any thread with one or two year car being concerned about anything? NO

They get FREE maintenance and then they just get another one 3 years later - that is the TRUE BMW ownership profile - and those guys and few women could not care less about jet sprays or oil consumption or anything else.

Still 5,000 or even 3,000 miles to a quart when the "typical" BMW is only serviced every 16,500 miles (national average according to BMW themselves) that may be bit too close to comfort on engine with 4.2 Liters of oil (well few have 7) - by simple math there is almost NO oil when the service indicator is on.

And some women do not think they need service until the RED OIL light is ON.

I actually know of one that did just that - one think I have to give credit to MW engine design is that the car still runs - but may be that is what is eating the connecting rod bearings, rather than "strange" combination of contamination and less than acceptable tolerances - that show up 25,000 to 30,000 miles AFTER the car was driven.

Does not BMW check any tolerance when the build the engine?

May be it is just running LOW and OUT of oil that is the real problem, which they just do NOT want to admit to.

Personally I have never seen or heard of engine that would run just fine and then 20,000 + miles latter would fail due to "contamination" during assembly!!!

That is about as believable as spraying oil on top of the piston crown, but of course some people did just that!!!
I don't know. I have a few Shipmates and a Master Chief with BMW's bought used after deployment, and they run great. I drove MC's BMW and it ran like a top.

You can't blame the car if the owner is too stupid to pop the hood and pull a dipstick. Heck that would even go for a Yugo. But I would think an owner of a Yugo would be lower on the food chain, and lacking brain matter compared to a BMW owner. JMO

AD
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:

You can't blame the car if the owner is too stupid to pop the hood and pull a dipstick. Heck that would even go for a Yugo. But I would think an owner of a Yugo would be lower on the food chain, and lacking brain matter compared to a BMW owner. JMO

AD


(JMO) -is just that,an opinion,AD....


Now for the facts,and not opinions..

Most Americans do not even pop the Hood of any car,let alone a high end European model.....that is a FACT!

Most of my neighbors for example,go to the dealer or lube shop, and let them, do'everything' their car needs,including wash,and/or wax the vehicle,and then trade for a new one in 3-5 years. They only know where the key goes....that's it!

My co-worker has a 10 year old lexus with a 100k,and he never pops the hood.....his mechanics do that for him.

The bottom line.........cars are getting smarter,and people are getting dumber.

In the near future,instead of an 'idiot' light(good name) that comes on,a computerized voice will prompt the mindless driver, what and what not, to do. The cars are already half driving/parking for some as it is.

Hey Ad...the only dipstick now days that needs checking is the one behind the wheel.

Not only do cars need to be smart,but also the fluids,like oil. Gm shocks have a 'smart hydraulic fluid'. A true 'smart' car, does not burn Any oil at all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetorheological_fluid

http://www.aip.org/tip/INPHFA/vol-9/iss-6/p14.html

Don't tell me that burning a quart of oil every 2-6k is normal.....are we in the 60's.

Eventually, the EPA will crack down on those antiquated oil-burning standards,and the car makers will be held to a higher standard.

If all cars burned Zero oil(like mine),they could have left the high zinc levels in the oil with no effect on the cat.

Instead, the idiots legislate the removal of Zinc to save the emission controls,but then ruin the engine into an oil burner, and ultimately pollute the environment anyway........how clueless are they.
quote:
Originally posted by Buster:
They just can't accept the fact that very few want to use SynHype. Oil is relatively cheap and cars are lasting longer than most people want to keep them. Keep pushing that snakeoil! Wink


Really..........Buster.

Cars are lasting only as long as people can afford to maintain them........and that is a major,major issue now days.

THE FACTS................REPAIRS COST PEOPLE,BILLIONS!!!

http://www.smallbusinessnotes....stories/joeauto.html

"Statistics have indicated that over 85% of breakdowns could have been prevented if proper maintenance was being performed."

Bottom line..........people can't afford,and/or don't know how to properly maintain their cars.

Also,cars are becoming in a sense,throw-away cars,once they are out of warranty. The repair bill on an old car could easily be a down payment on a new one.

This is called "cut your losses." A car that is starting to go down hill will eventually become a gargantuan money pit.
Last edited by captainkirk
Recently (like few days ago) there was a news story about FORD Comet Caliente owned by this little old lady - that she claims she has driven over 500,000 miles.

She also apparently kept all the repair records and on the car that was but $2,500 and some change she spent reportedly $53,000 to keep running over the years.

Yet her claim to fame are lifetime warranties, so she keeps on getting FREE batteries, mufflers, brakes, etc.

But something NOT mentioned on the news story is that the 1965 FORDS had Gas Tank vented to the atmosphere, that is fumes would escape ALL THE TIME !!!

So this car in effect pollutes even when parked on a hot day as much as 2,750 new trucks would, or almost 14,200 PZEVS.

Now why should this old lady have the right to pollute the Air with Gasoline vapors ???
Something wrong with this picture !!!
quote:
Originally posted by Miro Kefurt:
Recently (like few days ago) there was a news story about FORD Comet Caliente owned by this little old lady - that she claims she has driven over 500,000 miles.

She also apparently kept all the repair records and on the car that was but $2,500 and some change she spent reportedly $53,000 to keep running over the years.

Yet her claim to fame are lifetime warranties, so she keeps on getting FREE batteries, mufflers, brakes, etc.

But something NOT mentioned on the news story is that the 1965 FORDS had Gas Tank vented to the atmosphere, that is fumes would escape ALL THE TIME !!!

So this car in effect pollutes even when parked on a hot day as much as 2,750 new trucks would, or almost 14,200 PZEVS.

Now why should this old lady have the right to pollute the Air with Gasoline vapors ???
Something wrong with this picture !!!



Great Find...

http://www.abc2news.com/dpp/li...k-mile-%22chariot%22


The pollution gasoline issue is because she was born.... before Al Gore??
quote:
FORD Comet Caliente


Well looks like the NEWS Dpt at NBC is getting desperate for stories apparently it is a re run of story from August 10 2009 done by FLORIDA affiliate, but was presented as "today" story !!!

The price was $3289.30 (with Factory A/C) !!!

So in theory if the average mileage is true the car should have today 12,000 more miles - but is she even still around ?

Too bad they did not bother to update the "story"......
WOW even better find Kirk !!!

So I kept on looking.....

But now I wonder why with so much honesty the invoices shown in Utube NBC and the ABC 2 story do not match in price ?

Why would someone bother to change the price and not even do a good job of erasing the previous one???

With that little discrepancy can you really trust that there are 500,000 more miles than the odo is not capable of showing ?

Or would 91 year Lady be less than honest ?

After all she only has driven 5K miles in a year, yet in another video she claims she is now driving the car MORE THAN EVER (like in every day) which she did not do when she was young and at home MOM.

Based on her "own" testimony the car should actually have 230,000 miles, or less !!!

The two claimed odo readings are 57,000 and 62,000 just about one year apart.

Ask any psychologist how would they read this statement:

"Well, she's never lied to me. She's never cheated on me," Veitch gushes. "And I can always depend on her. And that's the truth."

PS: I always probe below the surface on any sensational story,just my normal curiosity ....

4K average in last 17 years !!!

My husband traded in 1958 Lincoln for it

And then in 2009 in just 6 weeks the car gained 17,000 miles (from 540,000 to 557,000)

So what gives ???

July 12, 2010 East at Carlisle, PA 554,000 miles

July 14, 2010 Wauwatosa, WI 563,000 miles

July 15, 2010 She already has in her "book" page printed that proclaims 600,000 miles !!!

WOW she is an operator in a warp speed !!! (Could she be related to Trajan ???)

Well she wants to be on Jay Leno and see his collection of 120 cars, but she muct have started planning that the day Leno went on the air.......
Last edited by mirokefurt
quote:
Originally posted by Buster:
They just can't accept the fact that very few want to use SynHype. Oil is relatively cheap and cars are lasting longer than most people want to keep them. Keep pushing that snakeoil! Wink


And the Yugo. Still waiting to see that $30K Yugo. He did claim you could get two 1990 M3s for the price of a 1990 Yugo.

(What he didn't tell you is that those M3s are 1:18 scale die cast.)
quote:
Originally posted by Miro Kefurt:
WOW even better find Kirk !!!

So I kept on looking.....

But now I wonder why with so much honesty the invoices shown in Utube NBC and the ABC 2 story do not match in price ?

Why would someone bother to change the price and not even do a good job of erasing the previous one???

With that little discrepancy can you really trust that there are 500,000 more miles than the odo is not capable of showing ?

Or would 91 year Lady be less than honest ?

After all she only has driven 5K miles in a year, yet in another video she claims she is now driving the car MORE THAN EVER (like in every day) which she did not do when she was young and at home MOM.

Based on her "own" testimony the car should actually have 230,000 miles, or less !!!

The two claimed odo readings are 57,000 and 62,000 just about one year apart.

Ask any psychologist how would they read this statement:

"Well, she's never lied to me. She's never cheated on me," Veitch gushes. "And I can always depend on her. And that's the truth."

PS: I always probe below the surface on any sensational story,just my normal curiosity ....

4K average in last 17 years !!!

My husband traded in 1958 Lincoln for it

And then in 2009 in just 6 weeks the car gained 17,000 miles (from 540,000 to 557,000)

So what gives ???

July 12, 2010 East at Carlisle, PA 554,000 miles

July 14, 2010 Wauwatosa, WI 563,000 miles

July 15, 2010 She already has in her "book" page printed that proclaims 600,000 miles !!!

WOW she is an operator in a warp speed !!! (Could she be related to Trajan ???)

Well she wants to be on Jay Leno and see his collection of 120 cars, but she muct have started planning that the day Leno went on the air.......



http://www.abc2news.com/dpp/li...k-mile-%22chariot%22



http://autos.aol.com/article/rachel-veitch-old-car/

Look out..............she's packin heat boys!!!!!!!!!!!!


Wow.......she's mechanical too!!

http://www.dipity.com/timeline...-Comet-Caliente/list



Looks like she drove 3k from roughly July 2009 to July 2010 ??

Car does Look Good for that vintage mercury,I'll give her that!

The odometer issue..............well,she is 91,or is she 92,or 93.......
Last edited by captainkirk
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:

You can't blame the car if the owner is too stupid to pop the hood and pull a dipstick. Heck that would even go for a Yugo. But I would think an owner of a Yugo would be lower on the food chain, and lacking brain matter compared to a BMW owner. JMO

AD




Don't tell me that burning a quart of oil every 2-6k is normal.....are we in the 60's.



As long as your are quoting me show me where I said 2-6K is normal.

I made mention to Trajan using a qt in 6000 miles. That is acceptable in the industry. If you brought your buddies Yugo in to the shop and told them you were using a qt of oil in 6000 miles they'd probably tell you that was the best running Yugo in the world.

I can't believe Yugo was even brought up here as something being good, and used to promote Synlube. That is the funniest thing ever. Keep that coming my Shipmates and I are really enjoying this thread. Many thanks for making this a great thread for us to laugh at.

I agree with Buster, he knows a thing or 2 about oil.


quote:
Originally posted by Buster:
They just can't accept the fact that very few want to use SynHype. Oil is relatively cheap and cars are lasting longer than most people want to keep them. Keep pushing that snakeoil! Wink


BTW no buyers of it here.

AD
YUGO was the First car in 1985 to offer FREE 1 year or 12,000 miles maintenance, all you had to do is to bring it to the dealer and they did:

Look at the dipstick
Checked the Tire pressure (all 5 tires)
Cleaned the Windows
Checked Coolant and Brake Fluid Level
= Car was serviced


The FIRST oil change was at 15,000 miles - so bit of "trick" but in 1985 people really believed back then that 3 months or 3,000 miles is all they can go between services - which then also included spark plugs changes.

Of course YUGO had BOSCH electronic Ignition and a Platinum plugs (BOSCH or ISKRA), so no Spark Plug Changes either.

Indeed there was no major anything for 4 years or 40,000 miles (the Warranty lenght) to be done, that is why YUGO America could offer this.

At 40,000 you changed the Air Filter, Fuel Filter and the Timing Belt and the Water Pump and Alternator Belt. The 40,000 miles service to experienced mechanic took total of 45 minutes and was under $120 parts and labor.

75% of YUGO owner's NEVER did this recommended service !!! And just waited until the belt(s) broke usualy 5 to 7 years since manufacture.

The ZASTAVA OEM Oil was SAE 10W-50 made by Jugopetrol and licensed from CASTROL GB = Synthetic of course PAO and POE blend.

In 1985 it was the ONLY car sold in USA with Synthetic Motor Oil as OEM fill, but unfortunately when Imported as part of the car there was only 1.8% import duty.

But if shipped separately there was 34% import tax on finished lubes, that is why there was no OEM YUGO Oil at the dealers. Also OCCIDENTAL Petroleum had exclusive deal with Yugoslav Government so the oil could not be imported except through them, and unfortunately Mr. Hammer almost had a stroke the frst time he saw YUGO so that was not about to happen....

Because of the Warranty Act in USA Yugo America did not insist that the OEM Oil is used by Dealers for eventual servicing at 15,000 miles.

But once the OEM Oil was changed the service interval was 6 months or 6,000 miles with API SF motor oil.

API SF was YUGO recomended, when most oils on market at that time were SE or SD rated.

Since the YUGO engine was based on 1960's FIAT design it was quite tollerant of poor quality oils.

And NO it did NOT burn Oil !!!
SynLube was used in the 1984 cars that had 850 ccm engines and were planned for Southern California ONLY (the contract with ZASTAVA was for 5,000 units) they also had BOSCH EFI (same as that on FIAT & BERTONE X1/9 since 1979) but when Bicklin bought the distribution rights for REST of the USA, he decided to cheap out the car and put in a carburetor and just to have the same torque and power they had to up the engine to 1.1L so not really a smart move. As the car lost 10 MPG by doing so and was only 5 MPH faster (top speed).

As a result there were not 1984 or 1985 cars sold in California (they could not meet the emissions levels under the 5 year certification standards with a carburetor).

The YUGO 45 was the car for $4,500 with 10 year and 100,000 miles Warranty and FREE maintenance (due to SynLube) GOT ALL THE INITIAL PUBLICITY and started the YUGO-mania, but that never really happened and in 1992 KIA and latter HYUNDAI adopted the 10 year Warranty Idea.

So like it or not YUGO did start lot of "new" trends that still live on today in the Auto Industry in one way or another.

I doubt BMW and latter Mercedes would have given people FREE maintenance if YUGO did not do that FIRST.........

While due to US embargo YUGO went oout of business in 1992, it was made in Serbia till December 2008 - over 800,000 of them were made of which 167,000 were sold in USA.

SO not exactly a "failure" as some may think !!!
quote:
ADFD1


Point is YOU have never owned YUGO and probably never driven one either so in any legal proceding your testimony would be ruled as "hearsay" that is of NO LEGAL VALUE:

hearsay n. 1) second-hand evidence in which the witness is not telling what he/she knows personally, but what others have said to him/her. 2) a common objection made by the opposing lawyer to testimony, when it appears the witness has violated the hearsay rule. 3) scuttlebutt or gossip.
quote:
Originally posted by Miro Kefurt:
quote:
US Navy


Come to think of it were not the pilots that were stationed in Aviano that bombed the ZASTAVA factory - your guys ?

And gee they also blown up and killed some Chinese diplomats by "mistake" while they were at it !

I do not think that is a way to keep people on US mainland too safe.....

OR did you forget that part of history already as well ?

After all the ZASTAVA factory was a significiant military traget as it used to make hand guns in 1920......

But someone forgot it was 1999 and was making cars since 1953 - OUPSSSS..... another "minor" mistake......

Ya let's keep us SAFE !!!!


I have to pick my words carefully, so let me just say you are a FOOL, a TOTAL FOOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Here's a suggestion fool, if you don't like it here in the US leave!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We don't need you! Maybe you can push your crap in Afghanistan, Iraq, or China. I'm sure they'll listen.

AD
What I can't stand most about SynLube and even Amsoil at times, is the way it's pushed.

It takes me 25 minutes to change the oil on my car. I can buy the oil I need, that was approved to be used, from $12-$25, depending on what I want to spend. My cars will last a minimum of 200-300k miles. By then, the doors will be falling off and I'll want something new.

My brother has a Toyota sludge V6 Solara. He bought it with 30k miles. It now has 250k miles using nothing but Mobil 1 with 8k-10k mile drain intervals.
quote:
Originally posted by Miro Kefurt:
quote:
ADFD1

And OH Don't forget - you hate French too, may be you should send back the Lady Liberty, but then this was a nice gesture too:



Fool- Where did it say I hated anyone? Don't put words in print you can't back up, OK? Seems you went off the deep end. Chill, and as stated if you don't like the USA get out!!!!!!!!!!! Trust me we'll get along just fine without you. Remember you need us we don't need fools like you!!!!!!

Try pushing your oil elsewhere in the world.

AD
quote:
Originally posted by Miro Kefurt:
quote:
US Navy


Come to think of it were not the pilots that were stationed in Aviano that bombed the ZASTAVA factory - your guys ?

And gee they also blown up and killed some Chinese diplomats by "mistake" while they were at it !

I do not think that is a way to keep people on US mainland too safe.....

OR did you forget that part of history already as well ?

After all the ZASTAVA factory was a significiant military traget as it used to make hand guns in 1920......

But someone forgot it was 1999 and was making cars since 1953 - OUPSSSS..... another "minor" mistake......

Ya let's keep us SAFE !!!!

1. The Juice

David Dunning, a Cornell professor of social psychology, was perusing the 1996 World Almanac. In a section called Offbeat News Stories he found a tantalizingly brief account of a series of bank robberies committed in Pittsburgh the previous year. From there, it was an easy matter to track the case to the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, specifically to an article by Michael A. Fuoco:

ARREST IN BANK ROBBERY,
SUSPECT’S TV PICTURE SPURS TIPS

At 5 feet 6 inches and about 270 pounds, bank robbery suspect McArthur Wheeler isn’t the type of person who fades into the woodwork. So it was no surprise that he was recognized by informants, who tipped detectives to his whereabouts after his picture was telecast Wednesday night during the Pittsburgh Crime Stoppers Inc. segment of the 11 o’clock news.

At 12:10 a.m. yesterday, less than an hour after the broadcast, he was arrested at 202 S. Fairmont St., Lincoln-Lemington. Wheeler, 45, of Versailles Street, McKeesport, was wanted in [connection with] bank robberies on Jan. 6 at the Fidelity Savings Bank in Brighton Heights and at the Mellon Bank in Swissvale. In both robberies, police said, Wheeler was accompanied by Clifton Earl Johnson, 43, who was arrested Jan. 12.[1]

Wheeler had walked into two Pittsburgh banks and attempted to rob them in broad daylight. What made the case peculiar is that he made no visible attempt at disguise. The surveillance tapes were key to his arrest. There he is with a gun, standing in front of a teller demanding money. Yet, when arrested, Wheeler was completely disbelieving. “But I wore the juice,” he said. Apparently, he was under the deeply misguided impression that rubbing one’s face with lemon juice rendered it invisible to video cameras.

In a follow-up article, Fuoco spoke to several Pittsburgh police detectives who had been involved in Wheeler’s arrest. Commander Ronald Freeman assured Fuoco that Wheeler had not gone into “this thing” blindly but had performed a variety of tests prior to the robbery. Sergeant Wally Long provided additional details — “although Wheeler reported the lemon juice was burning his face and his eyes, and he was having trouble (seeing) and had to squint, he had tested the theory, and it seemed to work.” He had snapped a Polaroid picture of himself and wasn’t anywhere to be found in the image. It was like a version of Where’s Waldo with no Waldo. Long tried to come up with an explanation of why there was no image on the Polaroid. He came up with three possibilities:

(a) the film was bad;

(b) Wheeler hadn’t adjusted the camera correctly; or

(c) Wheeler had pointed the camera away from his face at the critical moment when he snapped the photo.[2]

As Dunning read through the article, a thought washed over him, an epiphany. If Wheeler was too stupid to be a bank robber, perhaps he was also too stupid to know that he was too stupid to be a bank robber — that is, his stupidity protected him from an awareness of his own stupidity.

Dunning wondered whether it was possible to measure one’s self-assessed level of competence against something a little more objective — say, actual competence. Within weeks, he and his graduate student, Justin Kruger, had organized a program of research. Their paper, “Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties of Recognizing One’s Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-assessments,” was published in 1999.[3]

Dunning and Kruger argued in their paper, “When people are incompetent in the strategies they adopt to achieve success and satisfaction, they suffer a dual burden: Not only do they reach erroneous conclusions and make unfortunate choices, but their incompetence robs them of the ability to realize it. Instead, like Mr. Wheeler, they are left with the erroneous impression they are doing just fine.”

It became known as the Dunning-Kruger Effect — our incompetence masks our ability to recognize our incompetence. But just how prevalent is this effect? In search of more details, I called David Dunning at his offices at Cornell:

DAVID DUNNING: Well, my specialty is decision-making. How well do people make the decisions they have to make in life? And I became very interested in judgments about the self, simply because, well, people tend to say things, whether it be in everyday life or in the lab, that just couldn’t possibly be true. And I became fascinated with that. Not just that people said these positive things about themselves, but they really, really believed them. Which led to my observation: if you’re incompetent, you can’t know you’re incompetent.

ERROL MORRIS: Why not?

DAVID DUNNING: If you knew it, you’d say, “Wait a minute. The decision I just made does not make much sense. I had better go and get some independent advice.” But when you’re incompetent, the skills you need to produce a right answer are exactly the skills you need to recognize what a right answer is. In logical reasoning, in parenting, in management, problem solving, the skills you use to produce the right answer are exactly the same skills you use to evaluate the answer. And so we went on to see if this could possibly be true in many other areas. And to our astonishment, it was very, very true.

ERROL MORRIS: Many other areas?

DAVID DUNNING: If you look at our 1999 article, we measured skills where we had the right answers. Grammar, logic. And our test-subjects were all college students doing college student-type things. Presumably, they also should know whether or not they’re getting the right answers. And yet, we had these students who were doing badly in grammar, who didn’t know they were doing badly in grammar. We believed that they should know they were doing badly, and when they didn’t, that really surprised us.

ERROL MORRIS: The students that were unaware they were doing badly — in what sense? Were they truly oblivious? Were they self-deceived? Were they in denial? How would you describe it?

DAVID DUNNING: There have been many psychological studies that tell us what we see and what we hear is shaped by our preferences, our wishes, our fears, our desires and so forth. We literally see the world the way we want to see it. But the Dunning-Kruger effect suggests that there is a problem beyond that. Even if you are just the most honest, impartial person that you could be, you would still have a problem — namely, when your knowledge or expertise is imperfect, you really don’t know it. Left to your own devices, you just don’t know it. We’re not very good at knowing what we don’t know.

ERROL MORRIS: Knowing what you don’t know? Is this supposedly the hallmark of an intelligent person?

DAVID DUNNING: That’s absolutely right. It’s knowing that there are things you don’t know that you don’t know. [4] Donald Rumsfeld gave this speech about “unknown unknowns.” It goes something like this: “There are things we know we know about terrorism. There are things we know we don’t know. And there are things that are unknown unknowns. We don’t know that we don’t know.” He got a lot of grief for that. And I thought, “That’s the smartest and most modest thing I’ve heard in a year.”

Rumsfeld’s famous “unknown unknowns” quote occurred in a Q&A session at the end of a NATO press conference.[5] A reporter asked him, “Regarding terrorism and weapons of mass destruction, you said something to the effect that the real situation is worse than the facts show…” Rumsfeld replied, “Sure. All of us in this business read intelligence information. And we read it daily and we think about it, and it becomes in our minds essentially what exists. And that’s wrong. It is not what exists.” But what is Rumsfeld saying here? That he can be wrong? That “intelligence information” is not complete? That it has to be viewed critically? Who would argue? Rumsfeld’s “known unknowns” and “unknown unknowns” seem even less auspicious. Of course, there are known unknowns. I don’t know the melting point of beryllium.
berylliumhttp://www.green-planet-solar-energy.com

And I know that I don’t know it. There are a zillion things I don’t know. And I know that I don’t know them. But what about the unknown unknowns? Are they like a scotoma, a blind spot in our field of vision that we are unaware of? I kept wondering if Rumsfeld’s real problem was with the unknown unknowns; or was it instead some variant of self-deception, thinking that you know something that you don’t know. A problem of hubris, not epistemology. [6]

And yet there was something in Rumsfeld’s unknown unknowns that had captured Dunning’s imagination. I wanted to know more, and so I e-mailed him: why are you so obsessed with Rumsfeld’s “unknown unknowns?” Here is his answer:

The notion of unknown unknowns really does resonate with me, and perhaps the idea would resonate with other people if they knew that it originally came from the world of design and engineering rather than Rumsfeld.

If I were given carte blanche to write about any topic I could, it would be about how much our ignorance, in general, shapes our lives in ways we do not know about. Put simply, people tend to do what they know and fail to do that which they have no conception of. In that way, ignorance profoundly channels the course we take in life. And unknown unknowns constitute a grand swath of everybody’s field of ignorance.

To me, unknown unknowns enter at two different levels. The first is at the level of risk and problem. Many tasks in life contain uncertainties that are known — so-called “known unknowns.” These are potential problems for any venture, but they at least are problems that people can be vigilant about, prepare for, take insurance on, and often head off at the pass. Unknown unknown risks, on the other hand, are problems that people do not know they are vulnerable to.

Unknown unknowns also exist at the level of solutions. People often come up with answers to problems that are o.k., but are not the best solutions. The reason they don’t come up with those solutions is that they are simply not aware of them. Stefan Fatsis, in his book “Word Freak,” talks about this when comparing everyday Scrabble players to professional ones. As he says: “In a way, the living-room player is lucky . . . He has no idea how miserably he fails with almost every turn, how many possible words or optimal plays slip by unnoticed. The idea of Scrabble greatness doesn’t exist for him.” (p. 128)

Unknown unknown solutions haunt the mediocre without their knowledge. The average detective does not realize the clues he or she neglects. The mediocre doctor is not aware of the diagnostic possibilities or treatments never considered. The run-of-the-mill lawyer fails to recognize the winning legal argument that is out there. People fail to reach their potential as professionals, lovers, parents and people simply because they are not aware of the possible. This is one of the reasons I often urge my student advisees to find out who the smart professors are, and to get themselves in front of those professors so they can see what smart looks like.

So, yes, the idea resonates. I would write more, and there’s probably a lot more to write about, but I haven’t a clue what that all is.

I can readily admit that the “everyday Scrabble player” has no idea how incompetent he is, but I don’t think that Scrabble provides an example of the unknown unknowns. An unknown unknown is not something like the word “ctenoid,” a difficult word by most accounts, or any other obscure, difficult word.[7] [8] Surely, the everyday Scrabble player knows that there are words he doesn’t know. Rumsfeld could have known about the gaps in his intelligence information. How are his unknown unknowns different from plain-old-vanilla unknowns? The fact that we don’t know something, or don’t bother to ask questions in an attempt to understand things better, does that constitute anything more than laziness on our part? A symptom of an underlying complacency rather than a confrontation with an unfathomable mystery?

I found myself still puzzled by the unknown unknowns. Finally, I came up with an explanation. Using the expressions “known unknowns” and “unknown unknowns” is just a fancy — even pretentious — way of talking about questions and answers. A “known unknown” is a known question with an unknown answer. I can ask the question: what is the melting point of beryllium? I may not know the answer, but I can look it up. I can do some research. It may even be a question which no one knows the answer to. With an “unknown unknown,” I don’t even know what questions to ask, let alone how to answer those questions.

But there is the deeper question. And I believe that Dunning and Kruger’s work speaks to this. Is an “unknown unknown” beyond anything I can imagine? Or am I confusing the “unknown unknowns” with the “unknowable unknowns?” Are we constituted in such a way that there are things we cannot know? Perhaps because we cannot even frame the questions we need to ask?

DAVID DUNNING: People will often make the case, “We can’t be that stupid, or we would have been evolutionarily wiped out as a species a long time ago.” I don’t agree. I find myself saying, “Well, no. Gee, all you need to do is be far enough along to be able to get three square meals or to solve the calorie problem long enough so that you can reproduce. And then, that’s it. You don’t need a lot of smarts. You don’t have to do tensor calculus. You don’t have to do quantum physics to be able to survive to the point where you can reproduce.” One could argue that evolution suggests we’re not idiots, but I would say, “Well, no. Evolution just makes sure we’re not blithering idiots. But, we could be idiots in a lot of different ways and still make it through the day.”

ERROL MORRIS: Years ago, I made a short film (“I Dismember Mama”) about cryonics, the freezing of people for future resuscitation. [9]

DAVID DUNNING: Oh, wow.

ERROL MORRIS: And I have an interview with the president of the Alcor Life Extension Foundation, a cryonics organization, on the 6 o’clock news in Riverside, California. One of the executives of the company had frozen his mother’s head for future resuscitation. (It’s called a “neuro,” as opposed to a “full-body” freezing.) The prosecutor claimed that they may not have waited for her to die. In answer to a reporter’s question, the president of the Alcor Life Extension Foundation said, “You know, we’re not stupid . . . ” And then corrected himself almost immediately, “We’re not that stupid that we would do something like that.”

DAVID DUNNING: That’s pretty good.

ERROL MORRIS: “Yes. We’re stupid, but we’re not that stupid.”

DAVID DUNNING: And in some sense we apply that to the human race. There’s some comfort in that. We may be stupid, but we’re not that stupid.

ERROL MORRIS: Something I have wondered about: Is there a socio-biological account of what forces in evolution selected for stupidity and why?

DAVID DUNNING: Well, there’s no way we could be evolutionarily prepared for doing physics and doing our taxes at the end of the year. These are rather new in our evolutionary history. But solving social problems, getting along with other people, is something intrinsic to our survival as a species. You’d think we would know where our inabilities lie. But if we believe our data, we’re not necessarily very good at knowing what we’re lousy at with other people.

ERROL MORRIS: Yes. Maybe it’s an effective strategy for dealing with life. Not dealing with it.

David Dunning, in his book “Self-Insight,” calls the Dunning-Kruger Effect “the anosognosia of everyday life.”[10] When I first heard the word “anosognosia,” I had to look it up. Here’s one definition:

Anosognosia is a condition in which a person who suffers from a disability seems unaware of or denies the existence of his or her disability. [11]

Dunning‘s juxtaposition of anosognosia with everyday life is a surprising and suggestive turn of phrase. After all, anosognosia comes originally from the world of neurology and is the name of a specific neurological disorder.

DAVID DUNNING: An anosognosic patient who is paralyzed simply does not know that he is paralyzed. If you put a pencil in front of them and ask them to pick up the pencil in front of their left hand they won’t do it. And you ask them why, and they’ll say, “Well, I’m tired,” or “I don’t need a pencil.” They literally aren’t alerted to their own paralysis. There is some monitoring system on the right side of the brain that has been damaged, as well as the damage that’s related to the paralysis on the left side. There is also something similar called “hemispatial neglect.” It has to do with a kind of brain damage where people literally cannot see or they can’t pay attention to one side of their environment. If they’re men, they literally only shave one half of their face. And they’re not aware about the other half. If you put food in front of them, they’ll eat half of what’s on the plate and then complain that there’s too little food. You could think of the Dunning-Kruger Effect as a psychological version of this physiological problem. If you have, for lack of a better term, damage to your expertise or imperfection in your knowledge or skill, you’re left literally not knowing that you have that damage.

I could not find a better description of miro than this.
Last edited by blk98mk8lsc
I was able to get this info from a former arx member who still has access to there forum.

These are the number of arx customers by country.

1) U.S.A. 807 users
2) Canada 61 users
3) India 5 users
4) Mexico 3 users
5) Australia 5 users
6) Malaysia 2 users
7) Poland 1 user
8) Sweden 1 user
9) Norway 3 users
10)England 6 users
11) Philippines 5 users

Going back to 2002, there have been 34 ARX Threads that have been LOCKED.

2010 = 4
2009 = 6
2008 = 4
2007 = 1
2006 = 4
2005 = 8
2004 = 4
2003 = 3
2002 = 0

Miro, you need to be careful, look what happened with the owner of auto-rx, he was banned from BITOG as a sponsor and because of his reckless posts he only has 899 customers and 34 auto-rx threads were LOCKED on BITOG.

The only reason why there were no Locked arx threads in 2002 was that some people were using it and did not realize the product was not working, many members complained about arx not working in 2003 and the owner of arx fought with members for another 6 years before getting BANNED, and now he has his cronies fighting for him.

Miro, don't make the same mistakes that the owner of auto-rx has made over the years, you are better person than that, I hope.
Bear, how could you compare that Fool to the owner of A-rX? At least the man (A-rX owner) has some class and a small customer base. I bet he also loves his country, and would never trash it on an open forum. Great way to sell product and win customers over. Pointless bringing A-rX up in this thread. Sorry man!

Miro: I stand corrected I do hate a few things: liars, cheats, thieves, con artists who use the internet to shill garbage, and spew false information, then attack people for not believing them. Ring a bell?

AD
I hate to go over to the dark side ,but that kind of piss ant personal shot at ADFD1 and the military serves no purpose that will stand up to the light of day. NO use what so ever on this board. Why noria and the moderator here lets this internet scam continue here is beyond my understanding. If this is all this board is good for then noria would be better off deleting the car and truck forum completely.
Thank you too for your kind words sir. If someone wants to call me out, fine. When they speak out against this Great Country, and the Military, that hits home. I have no use for any of those spineless people, and they should by all means move to another part of the world that they feel is better for them. That man is a FOOL! His product is a scam, and I too am I little disappointed the mods here didn't put an end to his little game.

AD

BTW you are correct Stupidity is limitless. Miro is constantly proving that, along with his close pal.
Maybe miro doesn't get it. Scratch that, there is no maybe.

While he does have the right to criticize this country, it's only because said right is constantly being paid for by the service of the millions who served this country.

Those who came before AD. Those who are with AD. Those who will come after AD retires.

And the hundreds of thousands who paid the ultimate price to support and defend the Constitution that spells out that right.

Lucky for you miro, that if you said that face to face too a member of the US Armed Forces, they have to much discipline to give you the beating you deserve.

This is not the place for this kind of galling crap. (My brother, who served on a FFG back in the early 80's, just shook his head at miro's garbage when I showed him this.)
Last edited by trajan
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
He does have that right, he also has the right to leave here. My best guess is he'll piss and moan and stay right here. Typical!!!!!!!

Turst me any man in uniform would love to put the gloves on with him after reading this and teach him some respect. The only problem is we'd be in a world of S*.*t for it.

AD


Oh I know. And if I saw it happen, I'd deny it to the MPs/SP, whoever. The best we can do is excersize our right to say just how much of a spineless, insufferable, scam artist he is.

And if his two minions stand aside and let him, then, then we'll know their caliber too.

All this nonsense because we don't buy into synlube/yugo hogwash like the others.....
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