Skip to main content

Read our primer articles on High Mileage Oil, Synthetic Oil and Kinematic Viscosity

quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
Europeans typically run much longer drains than the US. You would too if you paid what they do for oil.

But still, you have not backed up the claim about the Caddy.

Guess I'll not buy a CTS since it can't handle long drains.
would you even buy anything american?......let alone a caddy? I did

How long do you go between oil changes on your BMW.......vs......what the manual stipulates?


You could buy the CTS and use AMSOIL for example to exceed even the European spec.....here is why

http://synthetic-motor-oil-air...-engines-at-risk.htm
How in the heck did this topic go from me showing a half-way decently maintained lawn mower engine to crap about Garbage Caddy's? Cadillacs have gone downhill since the 1980's. All they are now are re-badged Chevy's and GMC's, with a power ashtray and phony walnut trim and made in Canada (not the United States).

My post was about proving Engine Design has a lot to do with sludge. The Geeks at B&S design these little engines for abuse. The tolerances are loose, the oil galleries are as big as the Lincoln Tunnel, and they are simple. These little engines are designed to see severe service, that no vehicle engine will ever see, unless you convert you caddy to a lawnmower.

I do buy American, Yes, my Titan has a Nissan badge on it, but it was built in Canton, MS. The engine was built in TN. I don't care for anything built by UAW, and their 10 minutes work, 20 minutes break, 45 an hour to bolt wheels on the lugs, then have 3 Union meetings to get more $$$ for doing a crummy job.

Dave
quote:
Originally posted by Deltona_Dave:

I don't care for anything built by UAW, and their 10 minutes work, 20 minutes break, 45 an hour to bolt wheels on the lugs, then have 3 Union meetings to get more $$$ for doing a crummy job.

Dave


Big Grin Wasn't that bad when I was in the UAW. But our plant had nothing to do with autos. Scott Paper was out biggest customer.
quote:
My post was about proving Engine Design has a lot to do with sludge. The Geeks at B&S design these little engines for abuse. The tolerances are loose, the oil galleries are as big as the Lincoln Tunnel, and they are simple. These little engines are designed to see severe service, that no vehicle engine will ever see, unless you convert you caddy to a lawnmower.


This should clear up the small engine question

Just thought I should add that small engines don't have high tech sophisticated emission systems like cars do... further stressing the oil. Car engines are also plagued with short trips,incomplete warm ups,condensation and so forth that all contribute to oil oxidation. Small engines will run hot and burn off VOC'S ,condenstation,and fuel intrusion. There exists no possible coolant intrusion into the oil in those small air cooled engines to boot.

The small air cooled engines do run the oil to higher temperatures compared to water cooled engines which can pose another set of possible issues in some cases!!
quote:
You mean, like the BMW plant in Spartanburg South Carolina?



If that makes you feel any better pointing that out...great.......but bear in mind that overseas companies bring the real money back to the originating company/country,in this example that would be Germany.

Don't believe me...........take a trip to the Midwest and observe what looks like a third world country in America.......darn shame!!!

Think it's bad now.............just wait!!!!!!

Keep buying foreign and you'll see what I mean!!

We'll all be out of work if it continues!!!
Last edited by captainkirk
quote:
Cadillacs have gone downhill since the 1980's. All they are now are re-badged Chevy's and GMC's, with a power ashtray and phony walnut trim and made in Canada (not the United



You might want to re-consider you Cadillac assertions and read this Dave. Most foreign car buyers like yourself trash American cars......yet have not owned American ever......or maybe over 30 years ago.

So how could you even know about American cars....let alone trash them??

A high tech Cadillac engine should be running the same kind of oil that Vettes run...........preferably group IV/V oil would be my choice. High tech engine gets high tech oil...Period!! Many will be rolling off the line with the good stuff already in the crankcase if not already!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadillac_CTS
Last edited by captainkirk
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:
quote:
Cadillacs have gone downhill since the 1980's. All they are now are re-badged Chevy's and GMC's, with a power ashtray and phony walnut trim and made in Canada (not the United



You might want to re-consider you Cadillac assertions and read this Dave. Most foreign car buyers like yourself trash American cars......yet have not owned American ever......or maybe over 30 years ago.

So how could you even know about American cars....let alone trash them??

A high tech Cadillac engine should be running the same kind of oil that Vettes run...........preferably group IV/V oil would be my choice. High tech engine gets high tech oil...Period!! Many will be rolling off the line with the good stuff already in the crankcase if not already!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadillac_CTS


you claim that they reduced the OCI.

Still waiting for you to back that claim.
Kirk, somewhere up there you said "You could buy the CTS and use AMSOIL for example to exceed even the European spec.....here is why"

Is the Amsoil certified to meet the spec?

also, about the GM monitor, a couple of years ago I was at dinner during a conference, the owner of a well known lab was there too.

He knows the lady that headed the algorithm team and spoke highly of her and her efforts.

Good enough for me.

I would discount anything a dealer told me that increased their profit.

My Dodge 2500 came with a 7,500 OCI in the manual, they gave 4 coupons for oil changes at 6,000, and then pput a 3,000 sticker in the window.

Same people told my daughter they couldn't install the filter I sent her with, (Jeep) because it voids the warranty?


Yeah, I trust them. NOT!
quote:
Originally posted by RobertC:
Kirk, somewhere up there you said "You could buy the CTS and use AMSOIL for example to exceed even the European spec.....here is why"

Is the Amsoil certified to meet the spec?

also, about the GM monitor, a couple of years ago I was at dinner during a conference, the owner of a well known lab was there too.

He knows the lady that headed the algorithm team and spoke highly of her and her efforts.

Good enough for me.

I would discount anything a dealer told me that increased their profit.

My Dodge 2500 came with a 7,500 OCI in the manual, they gave 4 coupons for oil changes at 6,000, and then pput a 3,000 sticker in the window.

Same people told my daughter they couldn't install the filter I sent her with, (Jeep) because it voids the warranty?


Yeah, I trust them. NOT!


This is not about trusting a dealership Per se. It's more about the fact of them dealing with some sludge issues that have occurred in this high tech engine,as well as all the other sludge issues in other cars.

Should the dealers have done nothing to address the issue of sludge???

So now when the dealer attempts to address an issue it's either bogus or an attempt to make more money........now everything is always about an ulterior motive?

Looks like Amsoil works on the CTS........http://www.25000milemotoroil.com/Best-Oil-for-Cadillac-CTS.html

http://www.25000milemotoroil.c...or-Cadillac-CTS.html

This link will discuss way down on the list regarding oil type and the algorithms for oci's....

http://www.cadillacfaq.com/faq/answers/caddyresp.html
Last edited by captainkirk
This link shows some of the politics/EPA involved with emissions and motor oil.

In America you can build a great car but are forced to use whatever oil is being made by big oil, and must push big oil to improve the quality.......it's a slow process......the oil quality always lags engine technology.

Earlier I showed the opposite is true in Europe allowing for much higher quality oil........hence the existence of the much-coveted German Castrol at Auto-Zone.

http://www.ilma.org/advocacy/l...dmarketers060204.pdf
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:
This is one example, if you read this link of OCI's being shortened.

http://74.125.93.132/search?q=...&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

http://legacy.signonsandiego.c...s_lz1d14sludge1.html


This letter written to shell implies quite a lot of info regarding low quality motor oil and proof!!!

http://www.motoroilmatters.org...Shell%20-%202009.pdf


None of those said the mfgs are calling for reduced ocis.

What at least one said was that some engines are prone to sludge. Which goes back to engine design.
The Automakers are fighting hard to get better oils to satisfy lubrication needs of today's engines.

Notice how sludge is listed among other things. Motor oil technology always lags engine technology!!

http://www.imakenews.com/lng/e...fm?x=b4bMGRl,bhb871W

http://narbreview.blogspot.com...n-sludge-claims.html

http://www.imakenews.com/lng/e...346479.cfm?x=b11,0,w
Last edited by captainkirk
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:
quote:
Cadillacs have gone downhill since the 1980's. All they are now are re-badged Chevy's and GMC's, with a power ashtray and phony walnut trim and made in Canada (not the United



You might want to re-consider you Cadillac assertions and read this Dave. Most foreign car buyers like yourself trash American cars......yet have not owned American ever......or maybe over 30 years ago.

So how could you even know about American cars....let alone trash them??

A high tech Cadillac engine should be running the same kind of oil that Vettes run...........preferably group IV/V oil would be my choice. High tech engine gets high tech oil...Period!! Many will be rolling off the line with the good stuff already in the crankcase if not already!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadillac_CTS


Hmm, Let's see. I had a 1971 Olds Cutlass Convertible, Then I had 1991 F-150 Pickup 4.9L six that had 130K. 1994 Dodge Ram pickup (trannys were junk), 1998 Ram with 5.9 cummins diesel, 1997 Camaro Z-28 LT1 engine. 2000 Chevy Impala, 2002 F-150 pickup. I would say I have had my fair share of "american" vehicles. The Impala was made in CANADA, The 2002 F-150 had a CANANDIAN built engine, and a MEXICAN rear axle and a MAZDA (Japanese) Tranmission. not really "American".

Yes, you have showed links that engines will sludge. I bet that over 75% were due to owner negligence (too long OCI, Improper oil, etc). I will not have a sludge problem, because I maintain my vehicles.

It is my choice to own a Foreign vehicle that is actually made in the U.S.A. By buying it, I have supported Americans in the the Southeast.
Not many Auto plants in the midwest, mostly farm land there. If the government would support our farmers, instead of bailing out automakers that can't build and market a decent car, the midwest might not look like a ghost town.
Dave
quote:
Originally posted by RobertC:
Kirk, somewhere up there you said "You could buy the CTS and use AMSOIL for example to exceed even the European spec.....here is why"

Is the Amsoil certified to meet the spec?

also, about the GM monitor, a couple of years ago I was at dinner during a conference, the owner of a well known lab was there too.

He knows the lady that headed the algorithm team and spoke highly of her and her efforts.

Good enough for me.

I would discount anything a dealer told me that increased their profit.

My Dodge 2500 came with a 7,500 OCI in the manual, they gave 4 coupons for oil changes at 6,000, and then pput a 3,000 sticker in the window.

Same people told my daughter they couldn't install the filter I sent her with, (Jeep) because it voids the warranty?


Yeah, I trust them. NOT!


My OLM routinely says 14.5K or better for an oil change. (I put a lot of highway miles.)

They never pushed me to change the oil early. They'd do it if I asked them, but it would of been on my dime.

I think they're full of it re: the oil filter you sent with your daughter. AFAIK, you don't have to have the dealer do it, just show that it was done on time.
Last edited by trajan
quote:
Yes, you have showed links that engines will sludge. I bet that over 75% were due to owner negligence (too long OCI, Improper oil, etc). I will not have a sludge problem, because I maintain my vehicles.

Dave



By the way Dave..........how is the phone tag thing going with Oak.Ca. regarding your task at hand........what did you find out??.....just wondering!!!

A very generalized answer will suffice!!
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:
quote:
Yes, you have showed links that engines will sludge. I bet that over 75% were due to owner negligence (too long OCI, Improper oil, etc). I will not have a sludge problem, because I maintain my vehicles.

Dave



By the way Dave..........how is the phone tag thing going with Oak.Ca. regarding your task at hand........what did you find out??.....just wondering!!!

A very generalized answer will suffice!!


I have left several voice mail messages and 2 emails to the Fleet Division. So far this week, no call back.
quote:
Originally posted by Deltona_Dave:
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:
quote:
Yes, you have showed links that engines will sludge. I bet that over 75% were due to owner negligence (too long OCI, Improper oil, etc). I will not have a sludge problem, because I maintain my vehicles.

Dave



By the way Dave..........how is the phone tag thing going with Oak.Ca. regarding your task at hand........what did you find out??.....just wondering!!!

A very generalized answer will suffice!!


I have left several voice mail messages and 2 emails to the Fleet Division. So far this week, no call back.


Thanks......I must say I am a little surprised at how efficient they are answering a simple question to one of their brethren!!

Although....no news is good news!! kirk
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:
quote:
None of those said the mfgs are calling for reduced ocis.


Look again Trajen!!

To help prevent sludge, Toyota in 2003 shortened the recommended oil-change interval from 7,500 miles to 5,000

This is copied from one of the links!!


BFD. Shows a bad engine design. BTW, that was 7 years ago. How about 2009/10.
Still waiting for that proof on the caddy.
Last edited by trajan
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:
quote:
None of those said the mfgs are calling for reduced ocis.


Look again Trajen!!

To help prevent sludge, Toyota in 2003 shortened the recommended oil-change interval from 7,500 miles to 5,000

This is copied from one of the links!!


BFD. Shows a bad engine design. BTW, that was 7 years ago. How about 2009/10.
Still waiting for that proof on the caddy.



Even group III is not immune. Just Look at this


http://74.125.93.132/search?q=...&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
quote:
Still waiting for that proof on the caddy.



Here it is again...............


With the newer DI engines being harder and harder on oil due to fuel dilution, doesn't it make more sense to go back to the old 3,000 mile interval? Aren't we now seeing a lot of UOAs that show significant oil breakdown after only 3,000 miles?

Also, many of the newer GM 3.6 engines are showing chain stretch issues. I read on GMInsideNews that technicians believe that extended oil change intervals were partially to blame. The dirty oil has been causing issues with the chain tensioner and the camshafts. Some dealers, such as the one who employs MrCritical, have began recommending 5k intervals (no higher) on the GM 3.6 engines.

Anyway, the point I am trying to make is that with engines becoming more and more complex, some engines are starting to develop oil-related issues. Would reducing our service intervals back down to 3,000 miles help reduce some of these problems?
_________________________


HOWEVER........I will say it again.........use a quality group IV/V oil and a microglass filter,or the new Bosch distance and you'll be fine.

Although...I think the Micro glass filter can tolerate higher heat in certain applications like hot running Vettes out west for example. The synthetic media I would guess is high tech...high temp, spun plastic fiber. Plastic might distort in some high performance hot running applications.


http://www.boschautoparts.com/...ail.aspx?article=156
Last edited by captainkirk
Did use for year Castrol gtx in a vw jetta 1990 the original engine had over 300k running strong, no sludge at all. My current work place have a complete fleet of f150 running on dyno and long oci no sludge. All the reputable oil have to maintain a certain level of quality, some product might be a little better then other or more suitable for certain application. Still the more you read ,the more you realize the quality of the product we have on the shelf these day.
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
Your "point" is irrelevant. The claim that cadillac was reducing OCIs was made by you.

You haven't backed it up yet.

And you will also explain the millions upon millions of engines running strong using what you claim is inferior oil.

Another claim you fail to prove.



This quote is not from me 'Nuke'....here it is again...

Here it is again...............


With the newer DI engines being harder and harder on oil due to fuel dilution, doesn't it make more sense to go back to the old 3,000 mile interval? Aren't we now seeing a lot of UOAs that show significant oil breakdown after only 3,000 miles?

Also, many of the newer GM 3.6 engines are showing chain stretch issues. I read on GMInsideNews that technicians believe that extended oil change intervals were partially to blame. The dirty oil has been causing issues with the chain tensioner and the camshafts. Some dealers, such as the one who employs MrCritical, have began recommending 5k intervals (no higher) on the GM 3.6 engines.

Anyway, the point I am trying to make is that with engines becoming more and more complex, some engines are starting to develop oil-related issues. Would reducing our service intervals back down to 3,000 miles help reduce some of these problems?
_________________________


HOWEVER........I will say it again.........use a quality group IV/V oil and a microglass filter,or the new Bosch distance and you'll be fine.

Although...I think the Micro glass filter can tolerate higher heat in certain applications like hot running Vettes out west for example. The synthetic media I would guess is high tech...high temp, spun plastic fiber. Plastic might distort in some high performance hot running applications.
quote:
And you will also explain the millions upon millions of engines running strong using what you claim is inferior oil.

Another claim you fail to prove.

quote:
And you will also explain the millions upon millions of engines running strong using what you claim is inferior oil.

Another claim you fail to prove.



Anyone reading this thread or the others that are now read only will realize I have more than proved the sludge issues with all the links I have dropped.

The links showing all the sludge issues and that motor oil only meets minimum specs,proves my case and then some!!!

Here is more of them again since you are playing the ignore what I prove game!!!

http://www.schleeter.com/oil-sludge.htm


http://www.techmax.ca/european...l_specifications.htm
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:


Cadillac/cts has just lowered their oci's on those models,and has been re-flashing the prom on vehicles in for service


And the proof is where................

You haven't shown anything that proves oil is the culprit.

Car mfgs have been sued over sludge issues. Not because of oil, but for faulty designs or wrong recommendations. (Mercedes equipment telling people they could go up to 20K on mineral oil for example.)

This thread itself gives the nod to good engine design, along with quality oil, meaning API certified, and reasonable oil changes, for the lack of sludge.

I know that you're attempting a synlube push through the back door, but no one is buying it.

Group III oil, such as Castrol, works just fine. So does a quality filter.
Last edited by trajan
quote:
(Mercedes telling people they could go up to 20K on mineral oil for example.)



Now it's your turn to prove something.

Prove that Benz gave the ok to go 20k on mineral oil as you claim above.......and not synthetic with a certain spec!!!!!

You are the one trying to back door by always attempting to discredit me on every topic and then ignoring all the prove I demonstrate without fail!!!

20 grand on mineral oil will be a Tough one for you to conjure up regarding a Benz oci recommendation. Can't wait to see that!!!
Here is proof of a 100k mile oil change using Synthetic done by a known oil expert named Ray Potter from ford written up by Popular science. So much for all you skeptics over very extended oil change intervals. Try disproving this one guys. You can't!!! The science is real!!!

Sorry to blow the wind out of your sails!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDvY4hmIuZg


More proof why synthetic oil is just better.

In the same Popular Science article on synthetic oils, veteran race car
driver Smokey Yunick was quoted: "When you disassemble an engine that's
been run on petroleum oil, if you examine the rings and cylinder bores
with a glass you'll see ridges and scratches--that's the wear going on.
With polyol (a variety of synthetic), when you take the engine apart
everything has the appearance of being chrome-plated. In the engine we
ran at Indianapolis this year we used a polyol synthetic. When we tore
the engine down, you could still see the original honing marks on the
bearings...no wear at all. We put the same bearings back in because the
crankshaft never touched the bearings. I've never seen that before."
Last edited by captainkirk
This proof comes from an Automotive Lubrication Engineer....

Finally, we asked a respected petroleum engineer why auto manufacturers
don't specify synthetic oils for used in their products. His response
was both candid and revealing: "Auto manufacturers must, by necessity,
stick to the 'generic' SAE standards in recommending oil grades and
viscosities...and synthetics are way ahead of SAE standards. The top
SAE motor oil classifications (SD, SE, SF, etc.), rather than being
benchmarks of excellence, are merely 'highest common denominators'. The
highest SAE rating (currently 'SF'), for example, is determined not for
the state-of-the-art performance of the better synthetics, but rather
for the best possible performance of petroleum oils *currently
achievable by a majority of petroleum oil producers* (emphasis ours).
It is not surprising then that synthetics pass these qualifications
effortlessly. What is needed is an entirely additional set of SAE
standards for synthetics. Such a grading system would, in effect, start
where current SAE (petroleum-oriented) specs leave off. If such a
premium grading system were adopted by the Society (SAE), then you'd see
the automakers universally recommending lighter oils in grades and with
recommended drain intervals completely beyond the reach of petroleum
products..."



This is the whole long article for the Ultimate of Proof of synthetic being best that lays all your questions to rest forever!!!! This is the Nail in the Petroleum Coffin!!!!

http://www.mr2.com/TEXT/synth_oil.txt
SD Motor oils were spec'd for cars 1971 and older

SF Motor oils were spec'd for cars 1988 and older.

@Captain Kirk; Why are you digging this ancient data up, and quoting it like it is current?

This data has no bearing at all on the latest dino oils on the market....You Failed Again.

No new car much less a new Cadillac is using SD/SE/SF motor oils. Get your 'FACTS' up to date.
quote:
This data has no bearing at all on the latest dino oils on the market....You Failed Again.



Prove that Trajen....I mean nuke.......I mean snakedotor............whatever.... just prove it!!!!!

The science hasn't change. The oil ran 100k then!!!!!!!! NO sludge even at 100k on a 'clunker engine' with a carb no less way back then. Sludge is happening TODAY from dino oil though!!!!

Originally Posted by VWTreads
You are correct, sludging problems in Europe are pretty much non-existent. It's also a fact that most synthetics in the USA are what's called a group III synthectic which is hydrocracked conventional base stocks. So basically they are just highly refined dino oils. In Europe it is not legal to market these base stocks as "synthetic". So sythetics in Europe are always true synthetics with PAO and Ester base stocks. Also very important is the european certifications for engine oils include a very intense 200+ hour sludge test. I recommend seeking and only buying oils with the VW certifications or the above mentioned Euro cert (A3/B3 in particular). This combined with 5000 mile oil changes and the use of a larger filter should be all that is needed to prevent serious sludging issues in the 1.8t. I'm not really sure gasoline differences have any real impact, as on a properly running engine you should find very very low percentages of fuel dilution in your engine oil.

Here is something up to date!!! Just gets even better!!!!! You asked for it!!!!

http://www.machinerylubricatio...anging-oil-synthetic

http://www.toledofreepress.com...synthetic-motor-oil/

http://www.synthetic-motor-oil...mpared-to-synthetic/

Prove me wrong!!!!! Your turn FOR YOUR PROOF.....and once again YOOOUUUUUU FAIL!!!!!!!
Last edited by captainkirk
OOooh...Somebodies mad because they are being destroyed on every oil forum.

I use a Synthetic oil 'Redline & Mobil 1EP' in my vehicles. For most people that would be overkill.

However the oil data YOU are using mentions SD/SE/SF oils, these oils were replaced 20-40 years ago.

The dino oils being produced by 'REPUTABLE' firms however are much advanced from the oils of decades past...PERIOD.

Please post relevant up to date data...better yet don't post at all.
Post
×
×
×
×
Link copied to your clipboard.
×