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I just pulled the rocker covers on my 2002 Craftsman Riding Mower/tractor (made by American yard Products AYP). Engine is a B&S 21.5 HP vertical shaft. Engine has 1200 plus hours on it. Never saw Synthetic OCI, except for one Mobil 1 top off. This old girl has had B&S oil factory fill, AAP 20w-50, GTX, Warren convenience store oil, etc. All has met API SL minimum. Last change was Rotella 15W-40. Current fill is Delvac 1300. Filters were either B&S or MotorCraft 400S.
Here is a link of the engine.

Remember, this is an air cooled Briggs Intek V-twin full pressure lube. It sees 25+ hours a month in very dusty conditions.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/...=1861000#Post1861000

Dave
Last edited {1}
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quote:
Originally posted by Deltona_Dave:
I just pulled the rocker covers on my 2002 Craftsman Riding Mower/tractor (made by American yard Products AYP). Engine is a B&S 21.5 HP vertical shaft. Engine has 1200 plus hours on it. Never saw Synthetic OCI, except for one Mobil 1 top off. This old girl has had B&S oil factory fill, AAP 20w-50, GTX, Warren convenience store oil, etc. All has met API SL minimum. Last change was Rotella 15W-40. Current fill is Delvac 1300. Filters were either B&S or MotorCraft 400S.
Here is a link of the engine.

Remember, this is an air cooled Briggs Intek V-twin full pressure lube. It sees 25+ hours a month in very dusty conditions.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/...=1861000#Post1861000

Dave


Capt. Kirk, Prove to me about Sludge again......

This thing has only had dino (mineral oil) on the average of every 100 hours.

Dave
Last edited by deltonadave
I started driving in 1960, well 1958 if you count the motor scooter. I used Pennzoil back then, you know the kind people used to say caused sludge. Any way I used either Pennzoil or castrol GTX for the next 40 years with absolutly no sludge what so ever. But I have always maintained my cars and trucks really well. I have used synthetic for the past 10 years.

Now I have always used synthetic in my 1995 Cub cadet. It has a Kohler engines and runs as good as it ever has.

Just my experience
Last edited by snakedoctor
Looks new, just because the engine is well designed and I changed the oil whenever, usually about 100 hours. Nothing special, just TLC.

Just goes to show, not so much the oil, but the engine design also keeps thing clean. B&S has always built a tough little motor, especially for the money. If I had big $$$, I would go with Kohler or Kawasaki.

Dave
quote:
Originally posted by snakedoctor:
I started driving in 1960, well 1958 if you count the motor scooter. I used Pennzoil back then, you know the kind people used to say caused sludge. Any way I used either Pennzoil or castrol GTX for the next 40 years with absolutly no sludge what so ever. But I have always maintained my cars and trucks really well. I have used synthetic for the past 10 years.

Now I have always used synthetic in my 1995 Cub cadet. It has a Kohler engines and runs as good as it ever has.

Just my experience


Snake,
This POS engine has gone over 200 hours (one season) w/o a change. I have even been cheap and changed the oil, but not the filter. The current fill of Delvac 1300 is holding up really good. I can prolly go 200+ hours on it. Trick is keeping the fins clean. The mower will fall apart, before the engine does. The floorboards are rusting pretty badly.

Dave
quote:
Originally posted by Deltona_Dave:
I just pulled the rocker covers on my 2002 Craftsman Riding Mower/tractor (made by American yard Products AYP). Engine is a B&S 21.5 HP vertical shaft. Engine has 1200 plus hours on it. Never saw Synthetic OCI, except for one Mobil 1 top off. This old girl has had B&S oil factory fill, AAP 20w-50, GTX, Warren convenience store oil, etc. All has met API SL minimum. Last change was Rotella 15W-40. Current fill is Delvac 1300. Filters were either B&S or MotorCraft 400S.
Here is a link of the engine.

Remember, this is an air cooled Briggs Intek V-twin full pressure lube. It sees 25+ hours a month in very dusty conditions.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/...=1861000#Post1861000

Dave


Deltona Dave, great pics, and I am sure you follow the manufactures OCI on this mower.
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
quote:
Originally posted by Deltona_Dave:
I just pulled the rocker covers on my 2002 Craftsman Riding Mower/tractor (made by American yard Products AYP). Engine is a B&S 21.5 HP vertical shaft. Engine has 1200 plus hours on it. Never saw Synthetic OCI, except for one Mobil 1 top off. This old girl has had B&S oil factory fill, AAP 20w-50, GTX, Warren convenience store oil, etc. All has met API SL minimum. Last change was Rotella 15W-40. Current fill is Delvac 1300. Filters were either B&S or MotorCraft 400S.
Here is a link of the engine.

Remember, this is an air cooled Briggs Intek V-twin full pressure lube. It sees 25+ hours a month in very dusty conditions.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/...=1861000#Post1861000

Dave


Deltona Dave, great pics, and I am sure you follow the manufactures OCI on this mower.


Big Bear:
I have been changing every 75-100 hours. Briggs recommends 50 hours. The last 2 seasons I started using HDEO, Rotella or Delvac 1300. Seems to run just fine on those.
quote:
Originally posted by Deltona_Dave:
quote:
Originally posted by Deltona_Dave:
I just pulled the rocker covers on my 2002 Craftsman Riding Mower/tractor (made by American yard Products AYP). Engine is a B&S 21.5 HP vertical shaft. Engine has 1200 plus hours on it. Never saw Synthetic OCI, except for one Mobil 1 top off. This old girl has had B&S oil factory fill, AAP 20w-50, GTX, Warren convenience store oil, etc. All has met API SL minimum. Last change was Rotella 15W-40. Current fill is Delvac 1300. Filters were either B&S or MotorCraft 400S.
Here is a link of the engine.

Remember, this is an air cooled Briggs Intek V-twin full pressure lube. It sees 25+ hours a month in very dusty conditions.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/...=1861000#Post1861000

Dave


Capt. Kirk, Prove to me about Sludge again......

This thing has only had dino (mineral oil) on the average of every 100 hours.

Dave


Just thought I should add that small engines don't have high tech sophisticated emission systems like cars do... further stressing the oil. Car engines are also plagued with short trips,incomplete warm ups,condensation and so forth that all contribute to oil oxidation. Small engines will run hot and burn off VOC'S ,condenstation,and fuel intrusion. There exists no possible coolant intrusion into the oil in those small air cooled engines to boot.

The small air cooled engines do run the oil to higher temperatures compared to water cooled engines which can pose another set of possible issues in some cases!!


However,this is daves real story,


I have an 8 year old Craftsman (AYP) heavy duty lawn tractor that is developing some sludge/varnish. Last season, it was filled with Rotella-T 15W-40 HDEO. Well, it don't like thick oil. It burned it at about 8 oz. per week (10-12 hours). Now that I am a BITOG'er, I want to clean her up and thought about this method:


So,the engine DID AT ON TIME.......HAVE SLUDGE....MAKING THE STORY A LIE

THE PROOF WITH A LINK

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/...wflat&Number=1829761


KIRK
Last edited by captainkirk
quote:
Dave



Capt. Kirk, Prove to me about Sludge again......


Dave,I thought you might like these links to help explain what is going on with some engines regarding your question about sludge and how it forms and why.

http://www.schleeter.com/oil-sludge.htm


http://www.examiner.com/x-4824...s-the-best-motor-oil

http://www.ehow.com/how_451611...duce-oil-sludge.html


http://74.125.93.132/search?q=...&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
Last edited by captainkirk
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
Nice how they list sludge problem engines.
And say: Remember—any car can suffer an oil sludge problem, and some manufacturers more than others due to various design differences

Good engine design, reasonable OCI, quality oil.


All of today's engines are very good/high tech engine design along with high tech emission designs so we can all breath easy.

More of the same can be said of future engine/emission designs which will challenge the crankcase oils even more so,but help keep the air clean,and get better economy!!

The issue is not defective engine design...just the opposite......very high tech state of the art designs meeting or exceeding all of the emission standards/economy for that model year which imposes a good deal of stress to the engine lube..oxidizing it that much faster as supported by the above links.

Engine design is not going to devolve by any stretch.......it will continue to evolve getting more highe tech with each passing year allowing for even lower emissions,more power,and better fuel economy.

The engine lubes will have to evolve just to keep pace or OCI's will be lower and lower like they have been as of late.

Cadillac/cts has just lowered their oci's on those models,and has been re-flashing the prom on vehicles in for service so the oil change monitor will decrement at a faster rate because of the very issues at hand...sludge. Other car makers are doing the same. By the way.....those cadillacs have very fast sports car engines if you ever drive one......very nice! Better use group IV of your choice though to keep those engines happy!!
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
You have a link for this caddy claim? And what car makers are doing the same?

Sounds more like a faulty engine design to me.

It isn't the oil's fault that engines are either of faulty design, the mfg makes wrong recommendations, or owners neglect routine maintainence, ie: not changing oil.


Yea you're right Trajen.........I forgot that all the engines on the market are now junk, and both foreign and domestic cars are now making faulty defective engines that sludge up........how silly of me not to realize that like you do!!!

You might want to email all those links I pasted above and set them straight with your knowledge of why all those engines have issues. I guess they are all misinformed according to you!!

These are also wrong???

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/...wflat&Number=1075810

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-En...M_Certification.aspx
Last edited by captainkirk
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
So, in other words, you *don't* have a link to your latest claim.

Kindly post when you do. Would like to know before I buy a CTS.

Neither link shows that Cadillac, or anyone else, is reducing OCIs.


Many of the dealers are just telling customers to change the oil sooner then what the manual states when issues arise,not just Cadillac.

That is why car makers are pushing for increased oil standards....to address the issues. I don't understand why you continue to ignore those facts.

Your going to buy a CTS?? That would be great to see that you "buy American"



http://www.asashop.org/autoinc/nov2009/cover.htm

Took my 2004 Cadillac cts to the dealer today.

To make a long story short..

The Cadillac dealer service department told me today. The oil life monitor is a bad tool to use when deciding oil changing intervals. I had my oil changed 5000 miles ago. Oil life monitor indicated oil life 69%. I figured I could go at lest another 3500 miles before the next oil change. Not according to the dealer service advisor and an technician they advised me 3500miles regardless, the oil life monitor goes by the engines rpm and temperature and is only ruff yes I quote a ruff guide. I asked what the hell the oil life monitor is doing on GM vehicles and why GM is telling me different story. They had no answer, I said Amazing and left!

My question

Any of you on this forum been told this about the olm? I contacted GM, They stand behind the olm and suggested I continue to use the olm to service the vehicle. Yes I used the recommended Mobil 1 5W30 synthetic. And I will not return to this dealership again. Thank you in advanced.

* digg
* delicious
* stumbleupon
* netscape
* addthis
Last edited by captainkirk
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
I'm not interested in what "dealers" are saying. I want the link to what mfgs are saying.

I also want the proof that car makers are pushing for what you claim.

I certainly haven't received any notice from a dealer to come in sooner than what the OCI already is.


http://www.asashop.org/autoinc/nov2009/cover.htm


GM 6094M is based on the same specifications as ILSAC GF-4 but additionally includes some specific GM requirements. GM 4718M is the GM high performance oil specification that goes well beyond the industry standard ILSAC GF-4 and API SM specifications. The Mobil 1 grades that carry GM 4718M have been fully approved and tested against GM 4718M. The companion Mobil 1 Extended Performance viscosity grades have not been formally approved against GM 4718M but will provide the performance at GM 4718M level. Engine testing required to get formal approval is limited to certain Mobil 1 products only.

This is for European cars including those imported to America:

http://www.techmax.ca/european...l_specifications.htm

This one comes from shell

http://www.motoroilmatters.org...Shell%20-%202009.pdf

This one talks about the politics behind the scenes in Europe and the U.S.
http://www.smartmotorist.com/c...-specifications.html

Pretty straight forward!!
Last edited by captainkirk
Some thoughts on GM's OLM

Icon 1 posted Profile for bbobynski Email bbobynski Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post Reply With Quote One thing I can touch on and clear up.....the GM oil life monitor operation and my statement that ZDP (or ZDDP as you tend to call it here...most of the API literature just sticks to ZDP so I tend to use that) depletion is the basis for oil deterioration.

My spelling is poor but ZDP stands for zinc dialkyldithiophosphate which , as it sounds, is an anti-wear compound comprised of zinc and phosphorus.

ZDP is dispersed in the oil so as to be at a potential wear site if a surface asperity happens to break thru the oil film thickness causing the dreaded metal-to-metal contact. A molecule of ZDP must be present at that moment to prevent microwelding at the contact site which will cause material transfer, scuffing, scoring, wear and catostrophic failure. The concentration of ZDP in the oil will determine if there is ZDP present to work it's magic. The greater the concentration...the more likely a molecule of ZDP will be there...and vice versa.

By nature, ZDP is sacrifical. As ZDP is "used up" at a wear site to prevent micorwelding the concentration of ZDP decreases.... So...if you measure the ZDP concentration in engine oil in a running engine it will decrease at linear rate based on engine revolutions. Any given engine has a certain number of high potential wear areas where metal-to-metal contact could occur due to reduced film thickness and/or surface asperities....areas such as rubbing element cam followers, distributor gears, rocker arm pivots, push rod tips, etc...... The more of these areas the more ZDP depletion. The more often these features come in contact the greater the ZDP depletion. That is why, generally speaking, ZDP concentration in the oil, for any given engine, will decrease at a fairly linear rate when plotted versus cummulative engine revolutions. The more times it turns the more contact the more chance for wear the greater the depletion. This is as much of a fact as I could quote ever and is really not speculation or anything. It is proven beyond a shadow of a doubt in many studies. That is why it is ONE of the basis for determining oil life remaining and why it is THE basic premis of the GM oil life algorithm. It is only ONE of the things that determines oil life...but it is the one thing that can be tied to engine operation in a linear fashion and estimated very accurately by accumulating engine revolutions via a counter.

The GM engine oil life monitor counts engine revolutions and accumulates the number for the basis of the oil life calculation. It then adds deterioration factors for operating temperature, start up temperature, soak times, ambient, coolant temperature, etc... There are a LOT of factors that "adjust" or affect the slope of the deterioration but the fundamental deterioration is traced back to the ZDP depletion that is inescapable with engine revolutions. The specific rate of ZDP depletion is readily measurable for any given engine so that is the fundamental item that is first calibrated for the oil life algorithm to tailor it specifically to that engine.

You would obviously like to get the oil out of the engine before the ZDP concentration gets so low that it is ineffective at being at the right place at the right time and preventing engine wear so that becomes the long term limit on oil life for that application.

The other things that determine oil life such a acid build up, oxidation, petane insuluables such as silicon from dust/dirt, carbon or soot build up from the EGR in blowby, water contamination, fuel contamination, etc.... are all modeled by the multipliers or deterioration factors that "adjust" the immediate slope of the line defined by the engine revolution counter as those items can be modeled in other ways and accounted for in the immediate slope of the ZDP depletion line.

The algorithm was developed over the course of many years by several lubrication experts at GM Fuels and Lubes, spearheaded by Doctor Shirley Schwartz who holds the patents (with GM) for the algorithm and the oil life montitor. I had the luck of working directly with Dr. Schwartz when the idea of the oil life monitor first progressed from the theoretical/lab stage to real world testing/development/validation. There were fleets of cars operated under all conditions that deteriorate the oil life for any and every reason and , thru oil sampling and detailed analysis of the oil condition, the algorithm was developed, fine tuned and validated to be the most accurate way invented yet to recommend an oil change interval by. As just one example, I have seen cars driven side-by-side on trips, one towing a trailer and one not, for instance, to prove the effectiveness of the oil life monitor in deteriorating the oil at a faster rate just because of the higher load, higher average RPM, higher temps, etc...and it works flawlessly.

The oil life monitor is so effective because: it is customized for that specific vehicle/engine, it takes everything into account that deteriorates the oil, it is ALWAYS working so as to take into account THAT INDIVIDUALS driving schedule, and it tailors the oil change to that schedule and predicts, on an ongoing basis, the oil life remaining so that that specific individual can plan an oil change accordingly. No other system can do this that effectively.

One thing is that I know personally from years of testing and thousands of oil analysis that the oil life algorithm works. There is simply no argument to the contrary. If you don't believe me, fine, but, trust me, it works. It is accurate because it has been calibrated for each specific engine it is installed on and there is considerable testing and validation of the oil life monitor on that specific application. NOt something that oil companies or Amsoil do. They generalize....the oil life monitor is very specific for that application.

Oil condition sensors in some BMW and Mercedes products are useful, also. They have their limitations, though, as they can be blind to some contaminates and can, themselves, be contaminated by certain markers or constituents of certain engine oils. Oil condition sensors can only react to the specific oil at that moment and they add complexity, cost and another potential item to fail. One other beauty of the GM oil life monitor is that it is all software and does not add any mechanical complexity, mass, wiring or potential failure mechanism.

There is considerable safety factor in the GM oil life monitor. Typically, I would say, there is a 2:1 safety factor in the slope of the ZDP depletion curve....in other words, zero percent oil life per the ZDP depletion is not zero ZDP but twice the concentration of ZDP considered critical for THAT engine to operate under all conditions reliably with no wear. This is always a subject of discussion as to just how low do you want the ZDP to get before the oil is "worn out" if this is the deciding factor for oil life. We would tend to be on the conservative side. If the oil life is counting down on a slope that would recommend a 10K change interval then there is probably 20K oil life before the ZDP is catostrophically depleted....not that you would want to go there...but reason why many people are successful in running those change intervals.

Please...NOT ALL ENGINES ARE THE SAME. The example above is an excellent practical justification of why you would want to add EOS and change the 15W40 Delvac in the muscle car at 3000 miles max and yet can run the Northstar to 12500 easily on conventional oil. You must treat each engine and situation differently and what applies to one does not retroactively apply to others. This is where Amsoil falls short in my book by proposing long change intervals in most everything if you use their oil. It just doesn't work that way. You can run the Amsoil to 12500 with no concerns whatsoever in the late model Northstar because even the oil life monitor tells you that for conventional oil off the shelf. Would I do that to the 502 in my 66 Chevelle...NO WAY. Amsoil says I can though. Wrong.


There are entire SAE papers written on the GM oil life monitor and one could write a book on it so it is hard to touch on all aspects of it in a single post. Hopefully we hit the high spots. Realize that a GREAT deal of time, work and energy went into developing the oil life monitor and it has received acclaim from engineering organizations, petroleum organizations, environmental groups all across the board. It is not some widget invented in a week and tacked onto the car.

The oil life monitor is not under the control of a summer intern at GM Powertrain per an earlier post....LOL Not that a summer intern wasn't compiling calibrations or doing a project on it but is under control of the lube group with a variety of engineers directly responsible that have immediate responsibility for the different engine families and engine groups. The idea that a summer intern was responsible for or handling the oil life monitor is ludicrous.....LOL LOL LOL
More...

The OLM does NOT just monitor engine revolutions. Each specific engine has a stored maximum "bank" of set engine duty cycles (revolutions) between OCIs, reset by the user at time of service. Each time the PCM fires, it subtracts the number of revolutions from the bank. When the bank = 0, the "Change Engine Oil" or oil light illuminates. Outside air temp, coolant temp, cold soak time, throttle load, vehicle speed, etc. are all accounted for in an effort to predict oil temperature, which in turn assess an exponential penalty factor. If the oil temp is above or below the standard algorithm allowance, the amount of degradation increases and is subtracted from the bank value at a higher rate. Hence, if you drive short trips in cold temps, the OLM ticks away faster. If you track your Vette with high rpm/loads, the OLM ticks away faster. If you tow, well you get the idea...

The ONLY thing the OLM cannot account for is a mechanical engine fault. If you have a leaky air filter or a coolant leak, the OLM will never know or change it's signaled OCI. This is where and oil condition monitor would be superior. GM chose this route for simplicity/cost. They are willing to stake a 5yr/100K powertrain warranty on it, so it can't be too terrible.

IMHO, the intervals are a bit on the high side, usually signaling for a change right at the time the oil is spent. I prefer a buffer of 10-20%, but have no qualms about going to 0%. I have yet to see a bad UOA by following the OLM
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
I'm not interested in what "dealers" are saying. I want the link to what mfgs are saying.

I also want the proof that car makers are pushing for what you claim.

I certainly haven't received any notice from a dealer to come in sooner than what the OCI already is.


http://www.asashop.org/autoinc/nov2009/cover.htm


GM 6094M is based on the same specifications as ILSAC GF-4 but additionally includes some specific GM requirements. GM 4718M is the GM high performance oil specification that goes well beyond the industry standard ILSAC GF-4 and API SM specifications. The Mobil 1 grades that carry GM 4718M have been fully approved and tested against GM 4718M. The companion Mobil 1 Extended Performance viscosity grades have not been formally approved against GM 4718M but will provide the performance at GM 4718M level. Engine testing required to get formal approval is limited to certain Mobil 1 products only.

This is for European cars including those imported to America:

http://www.techmax.ca/european...l_specifications.htm

This one comes from shell

http://www.motoroilmatters.org...Shell%20-%202009.pdf

This one talks about the politics behind the scenes in Europe and the U.S.
http://www.smartmotorist.com/c...-specifications.html

Pretty straight forward!!





Ummm, neither addresses what you claimed. Remember, Cadillac reducing the OCI?

The first in the series of non answers concerns the difference between API cert and ACEA.

You really should read it, as it does not support your "arguement" about bad oil.

I use ACEA cert oil. I don't care if it is API cert. If it isn't ACEA A3/B3, it doesn't go into my engine. I've made that clear on many occasions. ACEA isn't new you know.

The second concerns the use of low quality oil AKA non API/ACEA/Whatever certed. Like a certain oil we all know.

Still waiting for the proof for the CTS claim.

The overriding thing is that this thread is about a mower engine that uses mineral oil, and doesn't sludge.

The owner attributes that to a good engine design and use of certified oil and regular changes. The owner is also quite aware of what causes sludge.
In a motor vehicle having a direct or an indirect injection engine containing lubricating oil which has a useful life that varies in accordance with engine operating conditions, a method for advising the operator of the vehicle of the need to change oil, such method comprising the steps of:

Periodically calculating an effective engine revolutions value over predetermined intervals during a present engine operation in accordance with a product of measured engine revolutions and engine oil temperature and engine oil contaminant penalty factors which operate to increase the effective engine revolutions value to compensate for engine operating conditions that tend to cause increased degradation of the engine oil, the oil temperature and oil contaminant penalty factors being determined as a function of engine oil temperature and engine oil contaminant values, respectively;

Decreasing a stored remaining allowed revolutions value indicative of the remaining number of engine revolutions allowed for the useful life of the engine oil by subtracting the calculated effective engine revolutions value; and

Actuating an indicator advising the operator that the engine oil needs to be changed when the stored remaining allowed revolutions value falls below a predetermined threshold value indicative of the end of the useful life of the engine oil.

2. A method as in claim 1 further comprising the step of calculating the engine oil temperature value in accordance with engine parameters prior to calculating the effective engine revolutions value.

3. A method as in claim 1 further comprising the step of determining the engine oil temperature value by measuring an engine oil temperature from an engine oil temperature sensor prior to calculating the effective engine revolutions value.

4. A method as in claim 1 further comprising the step of calculating the engine oil contaminant value in accordance with an oil temperature value, fuel injection timing, fuel quantity and engine rotational speed prior to calculating the effective engine revolutions value.

5. A method as in claim 2 wherein the step of calculating the engine oil temperature value includes the steps of:



When the engine oil temperature value is in a warm up range, calculating the oil temperature in accordance with a measured initial coolant temperature at the beginning of a current engine operation and a sum of engine revolutions since the beginning of the current engine operation; and

When the engine oil temperature value is in an equilibrium range, calculating the oil temperature in accordance with a measured coolant temperature, engine rotational speed, fuel quantity, intake air temperature and vehicle speed.

6. A method as in claim 2 wherein the step of calculating the engine oil temperature value includes the steps of:

When the engine oil temperature value is in a warm up range, calculating the oil temperature in accordance with a warm up equation T.sub.o =T.sub.ic +k.sub.1 R.sub.e wherein T.sub.ic is an initial coolant temperature at the beginning of a current engine operation, R.sub.e is sum of the engine revolutions since the beginning of the current engine operation and k.sub.1 is a constant; and

When the engine oil temperature value is within an equilibrium range, calculating the oil temperature in accordance with an equilibrium equation T.sub.o =k.sub.2 +k.sub.3 S.sub.e +k.sub.4 T.sub.c +k.sub.5 F.sub.q -k.sub.6 T.sub.a.+-.k.sub.7 V.sub.s wherein S.sub.e is engine rotational speed, T.sub.c is a coolant temperature, F.sub.q is fuel quantity, T.sub.a is an air intake temperature, V.sub.s is vehicle speed, and k.sub.2, k.sub.3, k.sub.4, k.sub.5, k.sub.6 and k.sub.7 are constants.

7. A method as in claim 4 wherein the step of calculating the engine oil contaminant value includes the steps of:

calculating the engine oil contaminant value, C, from an equation
C=k.sub.8 +k.sub.9 I.sub.t +k.sub.10 F.sub.q +k.sub.11 T.sub.o +T.sub.o +k.sub.12 S.sub.e,
wherein I.sub.t is fuel injection timing, F.sub.q is fuel quantity, T.sub.o is the calculated oil temperature value, S.sub.e is engine rotational speed, and k.sub.8, k.sub.9, k.sub.10, k.sub.11 and k.sub.12 are constants.
quote:
Originally posted by snakedoctor:
If the was a problem with Cadiliac engines, there would be a techanical service bulletin on it. I have not seen one. Is there one. you tell us???


TSB.....give it time........

I did not had any engine trouble on the 2005 I had, but my friend did. His engine went out at 30,000 miles. He bought it used and it had the certified 100,000 mile warranty. I am wondering, too, if Cadillac has a problem with their engines. I rolled into the dealership with my 2009 CTS with 8,000 miles for the first oil change. I talked to the service advisor and he said that they were now recommending 6,000 mile oil changes; they were having problems with some of the engines at 50,000 miles. He said not to go by the monitor. My monitor would have let me go at least 10,000 miles.

I am certainly not saying that I let my maintenance go. I, too, check the oil on a regular basis. That is just common sense if you want to make an engine last. When I had my 2005 CTS, I went to the Cadillac dealership to get the oil changed at 5,000 miles. He told me that was not necessary because it was synthetic, and that I needed to go by the monitor. I asked the dealership on the last oil change if they were still going by that recommendation. At 8,000 miles, mine was at 40% and I just did not want to go any further. He told me that they, the Cadillac dealership, were now recommending 6,000 miles because what they had found was that, if you went by the monitor and the number of miles it allows, they were beginning to have engine problems at around 50,000 miles on some of the 08's and 09's. They attributed this to people changing their oil in the 8,000 to 10,000 miles range.
quote:
Originally posted by snakedoctor:
German castrol is limited to Auto Zone and some Pep Boys, and some Auto Zones are discontinueing it. The reason it became popular was it is Castrols only PAO oil. It was sold here to meet some European Car specs for oil.



That PAO fact further proves that European oil is superior......the link I pasted proves that and shows that politics is the reason. The car makers in Europe have power to mandate the best motor oil instead of "just good enough" like in the U.S.

The American Petroleum Institute (API) sets minimum for performance standards for lubricants. Motor oil is used for the lubrication, cooling,
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:
quote:
Originally posted by snakedoctor:
German castrol is limited to Auto Zone and some Pep Boys, and some Auto Zones are discontinueing it. The reason it became popular was it is Castrols only PAO oil. It was sold here to meet some European Car specs for oil.




That PAO fact further proves that European oil is superior......the link I pasted proves that and shows that politics is the reason. The car makers in Europe have power to mandate the best motor oil instead of "just good enough" like in the U.S.

The American Petroleum Institute (API) sets minimum for performance standards for lubricants. Motor oil is used for the lubrication, cooling,


Yeah, what ever
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:
quote:
Originally posted by snakedoctor:
German castrol is limited to Auto Zone and some Pep Boys, and some Auto Zones are discontinueing it. The reason it became popular was it is Castrols only PAO oil. It was sold here to meet some European Car specs for oil.



That PAO fact further proves that European oil is superior......the link I pasted proves that and shows that politics is the reason. The car makers in Europe have power to mandate the best motor oil instead of "just good enough" like in the U.S.

The American Petroleum Institute (API) sets minimum for performance standards for lubricants. Motor oil is used for the lubrication, c minium ooling,


MINIMUM IS THE STANDARD......NOT THE BEST

The ACEA (Association des Constructeurs Européens d'Automobiles) performance/quality classifications A3/A5 tests used in Europe are arguably more stringent than the API and ILSAC standards. CEC (The Co-ordinating European Council) is the development body for fuel and lubricant testing in Europe and beyond, setting the standards via their European Industry groups; ACEA, ATIEL, ATC and CONCAWE.
quote:
Originally posted by snakedoctor:
Golly, they sound so smart


They are smart.......and so are these guys

The Japanese Automotive Standards Organization (JASO) has created their own set of performance and quality standards for petrol engines of Japanese origin.

By the early 1990s, many of the European original equipment manufacturer (OEM) car manufacturers felt that the direction of the American API oil standards was not compatible with the needs of a motor oil to be used in their motors. As a result many leading European motor manufacturers created and developed their own "OEM" oil standards.

ACEA YOU SAY!

Because of the real or perceived need for motor oils with unique qualities, many modern European cars will demand a specific OEM-only oil standard. As a result, they may make no reference at all to API standards, nor SAE viscosity grades. They may also make no primary reference to the ACEA standards, with the exception of being able to use a "lesser" ACEA grade oil for "emergency top-up", though this usually has strict limits, often up to a maximum of ½ a litre of non-OEM oil.
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
Europeans typically run much longer drains than the US. You would too if you paid what they do for oil.

But still, you have not backed up the claim about the Caddy.

Guess I'll not buy a CTS since it can't handle long drains.
would even buy anything american?......let alone a caddy? I did

How long do you go between oil changes on your BMW.......vs......what the manual stipulates?
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
Europeans typically run much longer drains than the US. You would too if you paid what they do for oil.

But still, you have not backed up the claim about the Caddy.

Guess I'll not buy a CTS since it can't handle long drains.
would you even buy anything american?......let alone a caddy? I did

How long do you go between oil changes on your BMW.......vs......what the manual stipulates?


You could buy the CTS and use AMSOIL for example to exceed even the European spec.....here is why

http://synthetic-motor-oil-air...-engines-at-risk.htm
How in the heck did this topic go from me showing a half-way decently maintained lawn mower engine to crap about Garbage Caddy's? Cadillacs have gone downhill since the 1980's. All they are now are re-badged Chevy's and GMC's, with a power ashtray and phony walnut trim and made in Canada (not the United States).

My post was about proving Engine Design has a lot to do with sludge. The Geeks at B&S design these little engines for abuse. The tolerances are loose, the oil galleries are as big as the Lincoln Tunnel, and they are simple. These little engines are designed to see severe service, that no vehicle engine will ever see, unless you convert you caddy to a lawnmower.

I do buy American, Yes, my Titan has a Nissan badge on it, but it was built in Canton, MS. The engine was built in TN. I don't care for anything built by UAW, and their 10 minutes work, 20 minutes break, 45 an hour to bolt wheels on the lugs, then have 3 Union meetings to get more $$$ for doing a crummy job.

Dave
quote:
Originally posted by Deltona_Dave:

I don't care for anything built by UAW, and their 10 minutes work, 20 minutes break, 45 an hour to bolt wheels on the lugs, then have 3 Union meetings to get more $$$ for doing a crummy job.

Dave


Big Grin Wasn't that bad when I was in the UAW. But our plant had nothing to do with autos. Scott Paper was out biggest customer.
quote:
My post was about proving Engine Design has a lot to do with sludge. The Geeks at B&S design these little engines for abuse. The tolerances are loose, the oil galleries are as big as the Lincoln Tunnel, and they are simple. These little engines are designed to see severe service, that no vehicle engine will ever see, unless you convert you caddy to a lawnmower.


This should clear up the small engine question

Just thought I should add that small engines don't have high tech sophisticated emission systems like cars do... further stressing the oil. Car engines are also plagued with short trips,incomplete warm ups,condensation and so forth that all contribute to oil oxidation. Small engines will run hot and burn off VOC'S ,condenstation,and fuel intrusion. There exists no possible coolant intrusion into the oil in those small air cooled engines to boot.

The small air cooled engines do run the oil to higher temperatures compared to water cooled engines which can pose another set of possible issues in some cases!!
quote:
You mean, like the BMW plant in Spartanburg South Carolina?



If that makes you feel any better pointing that out...great.......but bear in mind that overseas companies bring the real money back to the originating company/country,in this example that would be Germany.

Don't believe me...........take a trip to the Midwest and observe what looks like a third world country in America.......darn shame!!!

Think it's bad now.............just wait!!!!!!

Keep buying foreign and you'll see what I mean!!

We'll all be out of work if it continues!!!
Last edited by captainkirk
quote:
Cadillacs have gone downhill since the 1980's. All they are now are re-badged Chevy's and GMC's, with a power ashtray and phony walnut trim and made in Canada (not the United



You might want to re-consider you Cadillac assertions and read this Dave. Most foreign car buyers like yourself trash American cars......yet have not owned American ever......or maybe over 30 years ago.

So how could you even know about American cars....let alone trash them??

A high tech Cadillac engine should be running the same kind of oil that Vettes run...........preferably group IV/V oil would be my choice. High tech engine gets high tech oil...Period!! Many will be rolling off the line with the good stuff already in the crankcase if not already!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadillac_CTS
Last edited by captainkirk
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:
quote:
Cadillacs have gone downhill since the 1980's. All they are now are re-badged Chevy's and GMC's, with a power ashtray and phony walnut trim and made in Canada (not the United



You might want to re-consider you Cadillac assertions and read this Dave. Most foreign car buyers like yourself trash American cars......yet have not owned American ever......or maybe over 30 years ago.

So how could you even know about American cars....let alone trash them??

A high tech Cadillac engine should be running the same kind of oil that Vettes run...........preferably group IV/V oil would be my choice. High tech engine gets high tech oil...Period!! Many will be rolling off the line with the good stuff already in the crankcase if not already!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadillac_CTS


you claim that they reduced the OCI.

Still waiting for you to back that claim.
Kirk, somewhere up there you said "You could buy the CTS and use AMSOIL for example to exceed even the European spec.....here is why"

Is the Amsoil certified to meet the spec?

also, about the GM monitor, a couple of years ago I was at dinner during a conference, the owner of a well known lab was there too.

He knows the lady that headed the algorithm team and spoke highly of her and her efforts.

Good enough for me.

I would discount anything a dealer told me that increased their profit.

My Dodge 2500 came with a 7,500 OCI in the manual, they gave 4 coupons for oil changes at 6,000, and then pput a 3,000 sticker in the window.

Same people told my daughter they couldn't install the filter I sent her with, (Jeep) because it voids the warranty?


Yeah, I trust them. NOT!
quote:
Originally posted by RobertC:
Kirk, somewhere up there you said "You could buy the CTS and use AMSOIL for example to exceed even the European spec.....here is why"

Is the Amsoil certified to meet the spec?

also, about the GM monitor, a couple of years ago I was at dinner during a conference, the owner of a well known lab was there too.

He knows the lady that headed the algorithm team and spoke highly of her and her efforts.

Good enough for me.

I would discount anything a dealer told me that increased their profit.

My Dodge 2500 came with a 7,500 OCI in the manual, they gave 4 coupons for oil changes at 6,000, and then pput a 3,000 sticker in the window.

Same people told my daughter they couldn't install the filter I sent her with, (Jeep) because it voids the warranty?


Yeah, I trust them. NOT!


This is not about trusting a dealership Per se. It's more about the fact of them dealing with some sludge issues that have occurred in this high tech engine,as well as all the other sludge issues in other cars.

Should the dealers have done nothing to address the issue of sludge???

So now when the dealer attempts to address an issue it's either bogus or an attempt to make more money........now everything is always about an ulterior motive?

Looks like Amsoil works on the CTS........http://www.25000milemotoroil.com/Best-Oil-for-Cadillac-CTS.html

http://www.25000milemotoroil.c...or-Cadillac-CTS.html

This link will discuss way down on the list regarding oil type and the algorithms for oci's....

http://www.cadillacfaq.com/faq/answers/caddyresp.html
Last edited by captainkirk
This link shows some of the politics/EPA involved with emissions and motor oil.

In America you can build a great car but are forced to use whatever oil is being made by big oil, and must push big oil to improve the quality.......it's a slow process......the oil quality always lags engine technology.

Earlier I showed the opposite is true in Europe allowing for much higher quality oil........hence the existence of the much-coveted German Castrol at Auto-Zone.

http://www.ilma.org/advocacy/l...dmarketers060204.pdf
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:
This is one example, if you read this link of OCI's being shortened.

http://74.125.93.132/search?q=...&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

http://legacy.signonsandiego.c...s_lz1d14sludge1.html


This letter written to shell implies quite a lot of info regarding low quality motor oil and proof!!!

http://www.motoroilmatters.org...Shell%20-%202009.pdf


None of those said the mfgs are calling for reduced ocis.

What at least one said was that some engines are prone to sludge. Which goes back to engine design.
The Automakers are fighting hard to get better oils to satisfy lubrication needs of today's engines.

Notice how sludge is listed among other things. Motor oil technology always lags engine technology!!

http://www.imakenews.com/lng/e...fm?x=b4bMGRl,bhb871W

http://narbreview.blogspot.com...n-sludge-claims.html

http://www.imakenews.com/lng/e...346479.cfm?x=b11,0,w
Last edited by captainkirk
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:
quote:
Cadillacs have gone downhill since the 1980's. All they are now are re-badged Chevy's and GMC's, with a power ashtray and phony walnut trim and made in Canada (not the United



You might want to re-consider you Cadillac assertions and read this Dave. Most foreign car buyers like yourself trash American cars......yet have not owned American ever......or maybe over 30 years ago.

So how could you even know about American cars....let alone trash them??

A high tech Cadillac engine should be running the same kind of oil that Vettes run...........preferably group IV/V oil would be my choice. High tech engine gets high tech oil...Period!! Many will be rolling off the line with the good stuff already in the crankcase if not already!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadillac_CTS


Hmm, Let's see. I had a 1971 Olds Cutlass Convertible, Then I had 1991 F-150 Pickup 4.9L six that had 130K. 1994 Dodge Ram pickup (trannys were junk), 1998 Ram with 5.9 cummins diesel, 1997 Camaro Z-28 LT1 engine. 2000 Chevy Impala, 2002 F-150 pickup. I would say I have had my fair share of "american" vehicles. The Impala was made in CANADA, The 2002 F-150 had a CANANDIAN built engine, and a MEXICAN rear axle and a MAZDA (Japanese) Tranmission. not really "American".

Yes, you have showed links that engines will sludge. I bet that over 75% were due to owner negligence (too long OCI, Improper oil, etc). I will not have a sludge problem, because I maintain my vehicles.

It is my choice to own a Foreign vehicle that is actually made in the U.S.A. By buying it, I have supported Americans in the the Southeast.
Not many Auto plants in the midwest, mostly farm land there. If the government would support our farmers, instead of bailing out automakers that can't build and market a decent car, the midwest might not look like a ghost town.
Dave
quote:
Originally posted by RobertC:
Kirk, somewhere up there you said "You could buy the CTS and use AMSOIL for example to exceed even the European spec.....here is why"

Is the Amsoil certified to meet the spec?

also, about the GM monitor, a couple of years ago I was at dinner during a conference, the owner of a well known lab was there too.

He knows the lady that headed the algorithm team and spoke highly of her and her efforts.

Good enough for me.

I would discount anything a dealer told me that increased their profit.

My Dodge 2500 came with a 7,500 OCI in the manual, they gave 4 coupons for oil changes at 6,000, and then pput a 3,000 sticker in the window.

Same people told my daughter they couldn't install the filter I sent her with, (Jeep) because it voids the warranty?


Yeah, I trust them. NOT!


My OLM routinely says 14.5K or better for an oil change. (I put a lot of highway miles.)

They never pushed me to change the oil early. They'd do it if I asked them, but it would of been on my dime.

I think they're full of it re: the oil filter you sent with your daughter. AFAIK, you don't have to have the dealer do it, just show that it was done on time.
Last edited by trajan
quote:
Yes, you have showed links that engines will sludge. I bet that over 75% were due to owner negligence (too long OCI, Improper oil, etc). I will not have a sludge problem, because I maintain my vehicles.

Dave



By the way Dave..........how is the phone tag thing going with Oak.Ca. regarding your task at hand........what did you find out??.....just wondering!!!

A very generalized answer will suffice!!
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:
quote:
Yes, you have showed links that engines will sludge. I bet that over 75% were due to owner negligence (too long OCI, Improper oil, etc). I will not have a sludge problem, because I maintain my vehicles.

Dave



By the way Dave..........how is the phone tag thing going with Oak.Ca. regarding your task at hand........what did you find out??.....just wondering!!!

A very generalized answer will suffice!!


I have left several voice mail messages and 2 emails to the Fleet Division. So far this week, no call back.
quote:
Originally posted by Deltona_Dave:
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:
quote:
Yes, you have showed links that engines will sludge. I bet that over 75% were due to owner negligence (too long OCI, Improper oil, etc). I will not have a sludge problem, because I maintain my vehicles.

Dave



By the way Dave..........how is the phone tag thing going with Oak.Ca. regarding your task at hand........what did you find out??.....just wondering!!!

A very generalized answer will suffice!!


I have left several voice mail messages and 2 emails to the Fleet Division. So far this week, no call back.


Thanks......I must say I am a little surprised at how efficient they are answering a simple question to one of their brethren!!

Although....no news is good news!! kirk
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:
quote:
None of those said the mfgs are calling for reduced ocis.


Look again Trajen!!

To help prevent sludge, Toyota in 2003 shortened the recommended oil-change interval from 7,500 miles to 5,000

This is copied from one of the links!!


BFD. Shows a bad engine design. BTW, that was 7 years ago. How about 2009/10.
Still waiting for that proof on the caddy.
Last edited by trajan
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:
quote:
None of those said the mfgs are calling for reduced ocis.


Look again Trajen!!

To help prevent sludge, Toyota in 2003 shortened the recommended oil-change interval from 7,500 miles to 5,000

This is copied from one of the links!!


BFD. Shows a bad engine design. BTW, that was 7 years ago. How about 2009/10.
Still waiting for that proof on the caddy.



Even group III is not immune. Just Look at this


http://74.125.93.132/search?q=...&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
quote:
Still waiting for that proof on the caddy.



Here it is again...............


With the newer DI engines being harder and harder on oil due to fuel dilution, doesn't it make more sense to go back to the old 3,000 mile interval? Aren't we now seeing a lot of UOAs that show significant oil breakdown after only 3,000 miles?

Also, many of the newer GM 3.6 engines are showing chain stretch issues. I read on GMInsideNews that technicians believe that extended oil change intervals were partially to blame. The dirty oil has been causing issues with the chain tensioner and the camshafts. Some dealers, such as the one who employs MrCritical, have began recommending 5k intervals (no higher) on the GM 3.6 engines.

Anyway, the point I am trying to make is that with engines becoming more and more complex, some engines are starting to develop oil-related issues. Would reducing our service intervals back down to 3,000 miles help reduce some of these problems?
_________________________


HOWEVER........I will say it again.........use a quality group IV/V oil and a microglass filter,or the new Bosch distance and you'll be fine.

Although...I think the Micro glass filter can tolerate higher heat in certain applications like hot running Vettes out west for example. The synthetic media I would guess is high tech...high temp, spun plastic fiber. Plastic might distort in some high performance hot running applications.


http://www.boschautoparts.com/...ail.aspx?article=156
Last edited by captainkirk
Did use for year Castrol gtx in a vw jetta 1990 the original engine had over 300k running strong, no sludge at all. My current work place have a complete fleet of f150 running on dyno and long oci no sludge. All the reputable oil have to maintain a certain level of quality, some product might be a little better then other or more suitable for certain application. Still the more you read ,the more you realize the quality of the product we have on the shelf these day.
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
Your "point" is irrelevant. The claim that cadillac was reducing OCIs was made by you.

You haven't backed it up yet.

And you will also explain the millions upon millions of engines running strong using what you claim is inferior oil.

Another claim you fail to prove.



This quote is not from me 'Nuke'....here it is again...

Here it is again...............


With the newer DI engines being harder and harder on oil due to fuel dilution, doesn't it make more sense to go back to the old 3,000 mile interval? Aren't we now seeing a lot of UOAs that show significant oil breakdown after only 3,000 miles?

Also, many of the newer GM 3.6 engines are showing chain stretch issues. I read on GMInsideNews that technicians believe that extended oil change intervals were partially to blame. The dirty oil has been causing issues with the chain tensioner and the camshafts. Some dealers, such as the one who employs MrCritical, have began recommending 5k intervals (no higher) on the GM 3.6 engines.

Anyway, the point I am trying to make is that with engines becoming more and more complex, some engines are starting to develop oil-related issues. Would reducing our service intervals back down to 3,000 miles help reduce some of these problems?
_________________________


HOWEVER........I will say it again.........use a quality group IV/V oil and a microglass filter,or the new Bosch distance and you'll be fine.

Although...I think the Micro glass filter can tolerate higher heat in certain applications like hot running Vettes out west for example. The synthetic media I would guess is high tech...high temp, spun plastic fiber. Plastic might distort in some high performance hot running applications.
quote:
And you will also explain the millions upon millions of engines running strong using what you claim is inferior oil.

Another claim you fail to prove.

quote:
And you will also explain the millions upon millions of engines running strong using what you claim is inferior oil.

Another claim you fail to prove.



Anyone reading this thread or the others that are now read only will realize I have more than proved the sludge issues with all the links I have dropped.

The links showing all the sludge issues and that motor oil only meets minimum specs,proves my case and then some!!!

Here is more of them again since you are playing the ignore what I prove game!!!

http://www.schleeter.com/oil-sludge.htm


http://www.techmax.ca/european...l_specifications.htm
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:


Cadillac/cts has just lowered their oci's on those models,and has been re-flashing the prom on vehicles in for service


And the proof is where................

You haven't shown anything that proves oil is the culprit.

Car mfgs have been sued over sludge issues. Not because of oil, but for faulty designs or wrong recommendations. (Mercedes equipment telling people they could go up to 20K on mineral oil for example.)

This thread itself gives the nod to good engine design, along with quality oil, meaning API certified, and reasonable oil changes, for the lack of sludge.

I know that you're attempting a synlube push through the back door, but no one is buying it.

Group III oil, such as Castrol, works just fine. So does a quality filter.
Last edited by trajan
quote:
(Mercedes telling people they could go up to 20K on mineral oil for example.)



Now it's your turn to prove something.

Prove that Benz gave the ok to go 20k on mineral oil as you claim above.......and not synthetic with a certain spec!!!!!

You are the one trying to back door by always attempting to discredit me on every topic and then ignoring all the prove I demonstrate without fail!!!

20 grand on mineral oil will be a Tough one for you to conjure up regarding a Benz oci recommendation. Can't wait to see that!!!
Here is proof of a 100k mile oil change using Synthetic done by a known oil expert named Ray Potter from ford written up by Popular science. So much for all you skeptics over very extended oil change intervals. Try disproving this one guys. You can't!!! The science is real!!!

Sorry to blow the wind out of your sails!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDvY4hmIuZg


More proof why synthetic oil is just better.

In the same Popular Science article on synthetic oils, veteran race car
driver Smokey Yunick was quoted: "When you disassemble an engine that's
been run on petroleum oil, if you examine the rings and cylinder bores
with a glass you'll see ridges and scratches--that's the wear going on.
With polyol (a variety of synthetic), when you take the engine apart
everything has the appearance of being chrome-plated. In the engine we
ran at Indianapolis this year we used a polyol synthetic. When we tore
the engine down, you could still see the original honing marks on the
bearings...no wear at all. We put the same bearings back in because the
crankshaft never touched the bearings. I've never seen that before."
Last edited by captainkirk
This proof comes from an Automotive Lubrication Engineer....

Finally, we asked a respected petroleum engineer why auto manufacturers
don't specify synthetic oils for used in their products. His response
was both candid and revealing: "Auto manufacturers must, by necessity,
stick to the 'generic' SAE standards in recommending oil grades and
viscosities...and synthetics are way ahead of SAE standards. The top
SAE motor oil classifications (SD, SE, SF, etc.), rather than being
benchmarks of excellence, are merely 'highest common denominators'. The
highest SAE rating (currently 'SF'), for example, is determined not for
the state-of-the-art performance of the better synthetics, but rather
for the best possible performance of petroleum oils *currently
achievable by a majority of petroleum oil producers* (emphasis ours).
It is not surprising then that synthetics pass these qualifications
effortlessly. What is needed is an entirely additional set of SAE
standards for synthetics. Such a grading system would, in effect, start
where current SAE (petroleum-oriented) specs leave off. If such a
premium grading system were adopted by the Society (SAE), then you'd see
the automakers universally recommending lighter oils in grades and with
recommended drain intervals completely beyond the reach of petroleum
products..."



This is the whole long article for the Ultimate of Proof of synthetic being best that lays all your questions to rest forever!!!! This is the Nail in the Petroleum Coffin!!!!

http://www.mr2.com/TEXT/synth_oil.txt
SD Motor oils were spec'd for cars 1971 and older

SF Motor oils were spec'd for cars 1988 and older.

@Captain Kirk; Why are you digging this ancient data up, and quoting it like it is current?

This data has no bearing at all on the latest dino oils on the market....You Failed Again.

No new car much less a new Cadillac is using SD/SE/SF motor oils. Get your 'FACTS' up to date.
quote:
This data has no bearing at all on the latest dino oils on the market....You Failed Again.



Prove that Trajen....I mean nuke.......I mean snakedotor............whatever.... just prove it!!!!!

The science hasn't change. The oil ran 100k then!!!!!!!! NO sludge even at 100k on a 'clunker engine' with a carb no less way back then. Sludge is happening TODAY from dino oil though!!!!

Originally Posted by VWTreads
You are correct, sludging problems in Europe are pretty much non-existent. It's also a fact that most synthetics in the USA are what's called a group III synthectic which is hydrocracked conventional base stocks. So basically they are just highly refined dino oils. In Europe it is not legal to market these base stocks as "synthetic". So sythetics in Europe are always true synthetics with PAO and Ester base stocks. Also very important is the european certifications for engine oils include a very intense 200+ hour sludge test. I recommend seeking and only buying oils with the VW certifications or the above mentioned Euro cert (A3/B3 in particular). This combined with 5000 mile oil changes and the use of a larger filter should be all that is needed to prevent serious sludging issues in the 1.8t. I'm not really sure gasoline differences have any real impact, as on a properly running engine you should find very very low percentages of fuel dilution in your engine oil.

Here is something up to date!!! Just gets even better!!!!! You asked for it!!!!

http://www.machinerylubricatio...anging-oil-synthetic

http://www.toledofreepress.com...synthetic-motor-oil/

http://www.synthetic-motor-oil...mpared-to-synthetic/

Prove me wrong!!!!! Your turn FOR YOUR PROOF.....and once again YOOOUUUUUU FAIL!!!!!!!
Last edited by captainkirk
OOooh...Somebodies mad because they are being destroyed on every oil forum.

I use a Synthetic oil 'Redline & Mobil 1EP' in my vehicles. For most people that would be overkill.

However the oil data YOU are using mentions SD/SE/SF oils, these oils were replaced 20-40 years ago.

The dino oils being produced by 'REPUTABLE' firms however are much advanced from the oils of decades past...PERIOD.

Please post relevant up to date data...better yet don't post at all.
quote:
The dino oils being produced by 'REPUTABLE' firms however are much advanced from the oils of decades past...PERIOD.


If they are so advanced.......why all the sludge issues and commercials that continue when 'those' oils are used.

Destroyed..........I have proven every point very well. You have not!!!!

SO.... I am still waiting for your proof that you never show with meaning you are the one getting 'destroyed' as you like to call it.

Still waiting 'trajen'
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
For gas engines, anything below SJ is obsolete.

Diesels, below CF.

http://www.aa1car.com/library/API_ratings.pdf

Can't find fault with any of Deltona Dave's thoughts on the subject either.


The information you post is supposed to show proof of what if any. It's just a chart compiled by big oil.......that's all.........


Trajen........still waiting for the info with the Benz 20k oil on dino oil specified by Benz.

You know......this one.......

(Mercedes telling people they could go up to 20K on mineral oil for example.)
To use your oft spoke line...."Google it'"

Hint: Mercedes class action suit. One of those you yourself mentioned in an ill fated attempt to blame oil for all those class action suits over sludged engines.

You remember, all those suits against the suto makers for sludged engines due to bad design.

And still, you don't prove the Caddy claim.
Last edited by trajan
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
To use your oft spoke line...."Google it'"

Hint: Mercedes class action suit. One of those you yourself mentioned in an ill fated attempt to blame oil for all those class action suits over sludged engines.

You remember, all those suits against the suto makers for sludged engines due to bad design.


I have been pasting links a lot longer now and no longer say.... "google it".. That was then....this is now.

Post a link showing that proof like I have been.

Show me a 20,000 mile oil change interval link that states MB recommended that with dino oil as you assert!!!

You can't show the proof...it doesn't exist........you just made that info up to try and win a debate you are obviously losing!!!!

IN SUM.............YOU LOST!!!!!!!
If you're going to do 3-5k changes, I'd stick with the mineral.

It doesn't hurt to use that OCI with synthetic. Well, it does lighten the ole bank account. But if you get peace of mind.....

BMW went all synth @1998 or so. I'm not aware of any ACEA A3/B3 mineral, so it's a moot point for me anyway.

But mineral or synth, I've never, ever, had a sludge problem in any car, mower, or snow blower.

As for getting back to the subject..... API Mineral/Dino is not bad...... It isn't.
Last edited by trajan
quote:
Originally posted by Nucleardawg:
Glad to see that you posted something relevant.

Those 20 year old posts, referencing SF oil, and then claiming it's relevant, made you look not to smart though.


The point was.............the popular science article at that time(1976).... proved synthetic oil can last a 100,000 miles done by a ford lubrication expert/guru.........that is the whole point..........you didn't get that!!!!!!!!

That article still stands as the most significant and largest to date!!!!

Now who is not looking too smart!!!!!!

The synthetic oil technology has only gotten better since then!!!!!


Here it is again........this is a bombshell by definition.

You have all been speechless over this blockbuster bombshell of information I noticed!!!!!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDvY4hmIuZg
quote:
Originally posted by Nucleardawg:
@ Kirk: DUH..Yes synthetic oils have only gotten better...Tell us something we don't know...But guess what...So have mineral oils...Your still not to smart.


Nuke/Trajen.....You are now on my ignore list for being unprofessional......you have been notified!!!!!!!! I will now only have sensible dialogue and intelligent exchanges!!
Last edited by captainkirk
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:
quote:
(Mercedes telling people they could go up to 20K on mineral oil for example.)



You have failed to give any proof ever..........like the 20k Benz remark above for starters............still waiting trajen. That was a bold remark/lie.....you can't back!!!!!

kirk


My dear fellow, I've done that in one of the locked threads. It was one of many suits launched by consumers against car makers concerning sludge due to faulty engine design/recommendations.

For someone who has yet to prove claims such as the CTS reduced OCI, or how all those sludge suits were due to oil, you have chutzpah.

https://forums.noria.com/eve/fo...=614104214#614104214

I guess you fogot that one? We'll ignore the fact that you falsely claimed to use your real identity.

Now, about that Cadillac reducing OCIs on the CTS...........

All in all, there has been nothing that refutes the OP's points.
Last edited by trajan
This is what I am talking about.

NEW STANDARDS ......the old didn't work well

Real world data is the best as described below using Dynos!! The old way of collecting data was not reliable!!!

GF-5 Issues
Most of the issues surrounding the coming GF-5 oil standard have to do with engineering test procedures that are obsolete or need to be changed. The current Sequence IV-B fuel economy test, which is done in a laboratory on a test bench, will have to be replaced with some type of engine dynamometer test that more accurately simulated real-world driving conditions. The new test procedure should be ready by early next year.

GF-5 may also require reducing phosphorous and sulfur even more to extend the life of the catalytic converter to 150,000 miles and beyond. Phosphorous and sulfur can contaminate the catalyst and reduce the life of the converter if the engine uses oil. But both of these ingredients are also important anti-wear agents, so the fear is that reducing phosphorous and sulfur too much may end up reducing the life of the engine itself.

There are already concerns that today’s levels of phosphorous may be too low for older pushrod engines with flat tappet camshafts. Camshafts with flat-bottom lifters generate a lot more friction between the cam lobes and lifters than roller cams with roller lifters. Consequently, cam lobe wear in older engines may be a problem if the oil does not contain adequate levels of anti-wear agents, or if the oil is not changed regularly.


IN SUM ............Motor oil may be developing more issues in the very near future(next year) then less issues. It's all about the EPA and environmental issues which is what led to all the motor oil sludge issues due to the emission systems on the cars choking down the engines ability to breathe and less than ideal oil formulations to deal with it!!

Now car engines will be dealing with wear and tear issues on this new standard.....besides the sludge issues. The sludge issues might be less...........but more wear on your engine is no better,and even worse!! Can you say, "look at my clean..worn out..almost new engine" !!!!

Let me guess.....when that happens you'll say....."bad engine"......."good oil"...."sue the automakers again for something the oil did" Well........you've been warned!!!

I won't have any issues because I will be using...............

High tech synthetic oils group IV/V with all the 'right stuff'......
Last edited by captainkirk
This is a good info from Noria.

Bottom line is that technology is evolving......so use the best synthetic oil possible.. GROUP IV/V


"""Typical issues that have occurred at least with the imports are because of the dealer/shop installing 'bulk oil' in a car that was engineered to run on a group IV/V SYNTHETIC. The cars on board software doesn't know cheap oil from really good oil. The European cars/design are from countries that use true Synthetics. The issues in this country(USA)have not been occurring any longer in Europe. They learned their lessons back in the 80's with black death.

The History Of Engine Sludge



A vast majority of us have never seen engine sludge, unless you happen to be a mechanic who works on neglected vehicles on a daily basis. As we will see below, there is nothing worse for a mechanic to deal with than engine sludge (at least on an intact engine). Believe it or not, engine sludge gets the moniker “Black Death” from the place where the real Black Death occurred in medieval times: Europe. During the 1980s, European drivers of Ford and Chevrolet autos began to complain that their auto’s engines were seizing up unexpectedly, even if they had performed the proper maintenance on their autos. Obviously, something was amiss here and it didn’t take The History Of Engine Sludge

 A vast majority of us have never seen engine sludge, unless you happen to be a mechanic who works on neglected vehicles on a daily basis. As we will see below, there is nothing worse for a mechanic to deal with than engine sludge (at least on an intact engine). Believe it or not, engine sludge gets the moniker “Black Death” from the place where the real Black Death occurred in medieval times: Europe. During the 1980s, European drivers of Ford and Chevrolet autos began to complain that their auto’s engines were seizing up unexpectedly, even if they had performed the proper maintenance on their autos. Obviously, something was amiss here and it didn’t take automotive experts long to figure out that it had something to do with [i] [B]ENGINE OIL]""""

This is the NORIA READ....

http://www.machinerylubricatio...hange-filter-sensors
Last edited by captainkirk
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:


Cadillac/cts has just lowered their oci's on those models,and has been re-flashing the prom on vehicles in for service


And the proof is where................




Well?


How typical of you, Trajan­. When backed into a corner, you completely ignore what is presented, then you throw out a smokescreen of nonsense to take off the heat.

Well? Well? Well? Well?
My own opinion Kirk is that using a quality dino with moderate oil change intervals no sludge issue would be present.

A irresponsible owner of a vehicle can be another reason for sludge.

Personally I have never owned a vehicle with a sludged engine. Marketing likes to play us, drumming into our heads, if were not using brand x, then watch out here come 'Da Sludge'
On all my current vehicles I use Redline or Mobil 1 EP, except for the Ranger which sees a quality dino.

These are both excellent quality synthetics and I don't mind paying a higher price for them.

That being said I could run only quality dino's and i'm certain the engines would be just as spotless.

I guess in the end if you own a vehicle that is known to sludge...use a synthetic oil and follow reasonable oil change intervals...
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:


I won't have any issues because I will be using...............

High tech synthetic oils group IV/V with all the 'right stuff'......


At least you're dumping that synlube.

Now, about that Cadillac reducing ocis??????

All the obsolete information and dodging does not alter the facts.

The OP's mower engine is fine.

The use of API mineral/dino is fine.

A good engine design along with reasonable oil changes and the use of approved oil goes a long way in combating sludge.
Last edited by trajan
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:
This BITOG thread talks about 'BLACK DEATH' engine sludge/deposits and why some are using European 100% PAO in their European rides.

Those oil change monitors are calibrated for it!!!

http://webcache.googleusercont...&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us


just as bad about bringing up issue that happened a long, long time ago...... your link.

Explain why it isn't mentioned in the present. You know, 2010.

The 15k miles done with Gr III oil, spec 5w-30, and the lack of sludge I've dealt with.

got a cheap product bulk oil from their local home improvement centers
they also did extended drains without considering the consequences. Negligence is an ubiquitous problem.

your link.

Don't know why you bring up the 1980s or 90s when the year is 2010.We don't use oil from the 1980s, or even the 1940s for that matter.

Doesn't change the facts stated by the OP.
Last edited by trajan
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:
If you need more proof.........how about over a million hits..........


NAYSAYERS JUST HATE PROOF!!! THE TRUTH HURTS!!!!!!! ALWAYS DOES!!!!

http://www.google.com/search?h...sludge&start=10&sa=N

http://www.google.com/search?h...+death&start=10&sa=N


Every time you post things like this, you torpedo your own position.

To wit: While sludge often results from poor upkeep, notably not changing the oil at prescribed intervals, some engines appear more prone to sludge buildup than others *If it was the oil as you like to claim, all of them would be, despite TLC.*

Engine failure due to sludge is a major problem for car owners, and automakers appear to have been slow to address it, generally linking it to poor maintenance rather than to a problem with the engine *no mention of inferior oil here.*

Toyota staunchly maintained that any such "oil-gel" problems are attributable to owners' abuse or poor maintenance habits *Note that Toyota doesn't blame the oil*.

I've already covered the class action suits...

And from one of your other links:

Industry experts say modern engines are even more prone to sludge build up than older ones. So what’s the cause, and why is it making a comeback?

There are several key reasons.

Crankcase Ventilation.
Oil vapour and combustion gasses must be removed, usually by being channelled through the combustion process.
If these gasses are not disposed of efficiently, sludge will form. Some modern breather systems are more successful than others.

Temperature.
Changes to the positioning of the Catalytic Converter have led to changes in temperature, hot and cold spots, in and around the engine. Hot spots bake oil, cold spots cause acid and sludge.

Crankcase Acidity.
Modern fuels produce much more acid when burnt. A proportion of this acidity enters the crankcase. Experts say that long term engine wear is now as likely to be down to acidity as friction.

Tighter Tolerances.
Engines are no longer manufactured down to Thousandths but Microns. Tighter tolerances mean engines are
using less oil, and as a result customers fail to check levels and miss oil changes

Poor Maintenance.
Drivers who miss recommended oil changes are without doubt contributing to the problem. Lease vehicle drivers especially are quoted as being among the worst for neglecting DIY level checks.

City Driving.
Constant stop/start city driving accelerates sludge formation. Drivers who spend most of their time in urban traffi c should be advised to book oil change services more regularly.

Don't see any blame on oil there either.
@ Trajan: Thanks for the last post, informative

You will not get any answer concerning the Cadillac...But you know that.

Modern dino oils are vastly superior to the oils of yester year...Anyone who would deny that, well is just plain ignorant...

As you mentioned if you have a known vehicle that uses a engine that is prone to sludge, your going to have to reduce the oil change interval, faulty or poorly designed PCV systems can be attributed to this issue.
Again, from one of his links: Used-car shoppers should also realize that even the most complained-about engines represented less than 1 percent of those made, so the odds of avoiding such a car are in your favor.

Consumers who own cars with sludge-prone engines should change the oil according to the “extreme use” schedule in the owner’s manual.

This is at the top of his list: http://www.consumerreports.org...e/overview/index.htm

So, here's a question. Why all those V6 3.0ls on the list?

I have a 3.0L I6, and it isn't on the list.

Don't see any Fords on the list. Or GMs either. If it's an oil problem, why not?
This is interesting.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/...wflat&Number=1874216

Chevrolet Camaro 3.6L (6 quart crankcase) meeting GM Standard GM6094M - Dino:

Why spec dino if it's bad?

Nice to see a bigger capacity though. helps with longer drains et al.

That link also has links to the manual for that and the CTS. And, no mention of the OCI being cut.

This is me being surprised...........
Last edited by trajan
I just noticed 9 ignored posts by Trajen/nuke..........all not worth reading or opening/showing.........because that one poster(trajen/nuke are the same)......always divert away from the actual facts and now flood this thread with whatever "trash talk" he is spewing again to serve is crazy agenda!!

He Must be a big oil straw boss/shill/troll!!!!

So why listen ever again to this 'character' due to the obvious political agenda he is trying to serve or push!


To spew distorted information!!!!


All I ever post/ed are the real scientific facts!

What/who do you want to believe??

The Facts without spin(what I have shown already)....or a straw man argument(Trajen/Nuke),with all kinds of spin!!

You be the Judge!

Kirk
Ahh, I'd let it go. His own links don't back up his claims.

Not much more we can do. Deltona's info hasn't been refuted. The auto makers don't blame the oil for the sludge problems. The customers haven't blamed the oil companies.

His own links show he's been on the wrong track.

Have a sludge prone engine? Change the oil/filter more often. The "severe service" schedule. (Not everyone does the filter. I just figure, what's another $10-$15 on top of 7qts?).

Use mfg approved oil. If not, at least API certed oil.

There is no miracle oil. No magic fix.
Last edited by trajan
This is off the net....shows oil is a fault for causing sludge.


Most common cause of sludge problem

As complex as the issue of sludge formation is, the most common cause of the sludge problem is the oil itself.
More exactly it is the use of either substandard oil like API SA or just using even the top quality oil for just too long.
As "obvious" as this may be, it is not surprising that general motoring public is not aware of either of these two problems.
Even if your "Owner's Manual" recommends top API or ILSAC quality motor oil, there is not any assurance that the local cut rate "quick oil change" outlet actually will use it in your vehicle, more often than not they will use deeply discounted "surplus" bulk oil whose quality is either substandard or as bad as API SA !
The second most common reason is just running way too long on the motor oil for the given type of service.
Another not too often disclosed fact is that during the ILSAC or API engine tests on motor oils, the oil life is measured in HOURS, and yet only very few vehicles sold anywhere in the world have ENGINE HOUR RUN meters.
The normal motor oil recommended service frequency is specified in miles or kilometers, but the motor oil life is in hours of service.
I remember way back........someone wanted to know why big oil was not sued......think again......this tells a different story.

The oil in question is a group III.......not the true synthetic group IV/V.

The oil filter was also blamed. That's why I use only depth filters with the backing support screen,or the new Bosch Distance depth filter. In either case, a group three oil can sludge and then block the filter putting the blame on the filter when the oil was at fault all along.

This would not have happened with a 100% PAO/GROUP IV/V OIL. No sludge,and no blocked filters....period! Just a super clean engine.

This engine below wasn't so lucky with the group III oil. The opposite of super clean!!


http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/...wflat&Number=1653077


This is the very famous BG product addressing sludge issues and mentions oil quality as an issue.

http://www.bgprod.com/blendr/sludgeKills.html
Last edited by captainkirk
quote:
Originally posted by inHaliburton:
I used to be in the habit of using quick lube outlets and using a synthetic oil from the hose. Since reading some of these threads, I take my own oil or purchase a quality synthetic from a bottle, not a barrel.


inHaliburton,

That's the smartest thing I've heard in a while!! I am glad you've been reading,and you won't be sorry. Playing it safe/smart is always a good bet!

Happy motoring!

Kirk
This is a Jay Leno interview with a Torco Rep.

It discusses what is wrong with modern day motor oil products, and how you can address the wear and tear issues occurring in both older car engines.....and newer car engines to stop or reduce wear due to the lack of anti-wear additives due to modern day car emission control systems that don't allow the use certain anti-wear additives of yesteryear that once protected our engines.

This interview implies that colloids shown in the second product are needed to replace those lost additives. Modern day colloids are better than zinc ever was, by reducing more friction....zinc just cost more! Zinc is what's discussed in the first product.

Colloids also stop those dry damaging cold starts that zinc couldn't even stop back in the day... as would be in the second product.

http://www.enginebuildermag.co...ay_lenos_garage.aspx
Last edited by captainkirk
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:


Cadillac/cts has just lowered their oci's on those models,and has been re-flashing the prom on vehicles in for service


And the proof is where................




Well?


You haven't backed up this "claim" yet.

I know, you can't.
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:


Cadillac/cts has just lowered their oci's on those models,and has been re-flashing the prom on vehicles in for service


And the proof is where................




Well?


You haven't backed up this "claim" yet.

I know, you can't.


Trajan, where's that vehicle you claim a neighbour of yours has that blew up from using Synlube?

Well?

You haven't backed up that claim Yet.

Ya, I know, you can't. Wink Wink
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:
I remember way back........someone wanted to know why big oil was not sued......think again......this tells a different story.

The oil in question is a group III.......not the true synthetic group IV/V.

The oil filter was also blamed. That's why I use only depth filters with the backing support screen,or the new Bosch Distance depth filter. In either case, a group three oil can sludge and then block the filter putting the blame on the filter when the oil was at fault all along.

This would not have happened with a 100% PAO/GROUP IV/V OIL. No sludge,and no blocked filters....period! Just a super clean engine.

This engine below wasn't so lucky with the group III oil. The opposite of super clean!!


http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/...wflat&Number=1653077




Another fail for you. (BTW, I remember someone, not too long ago, saying "big oil" doesn't get sued. Some tripe about them being too big.

That same person should look up the word potential as well. I also wonder if that same person could explain the part colored in red. Guess that potential suit had no merit.)

"Mobil(e) 1's fault?!? Hardly, he's got ZERO case there. You don't have to be a Mobil fan to recognize that if it WERE a common contributor to sludge, we'd know about it here on BITOG. Its a perfectly adequate oil, and less likely to cause sludge than many, many other other oils out there." (It would be known here too.)

"He got the check cut from Nissan, not Mobil."


"The fact that Nissan is paying for the repair says to me that the cause was something within the engine or emissions control system"



You really should *read* these links first lad.

And, I know I'm asking the impossible, but you can prove M1 is a grp III? EM does not publicly discuss formulations.

Got that bulliten from GM that says the OCIs were reduced for the CTS?
Last edited by trajan
quote:
Trajan, where's that vehicle you claim a neighbour of yours has that blew up from using Synlube?

Well?

You haven't backed up that claim Yet.

Ya, I know, you can't. Wink Wink



inHaliburton.....Very good point. But remember....Trajen only makes demands for proof,and never provides any of his own.

We are also still waiting for trajen to back his claim that Mercedes Benz was recommending oil change intervals of 20,000 miles on petroleum oil. He failed on that one as well

It's for reasons like mentioned above and all of trajens other lies and slander is why I have placed him on my IGNORE list along with his alter ego...Nuke..where he will stay until/IF he mans up and quits with his DRIVEL!!!

Snakedoctor.... being trajens other screen name is next to be ignored if he resurfaces with drivel as well.
inHaliburton......This is trajens remark saying Mercedes Benz said to go 20k on dino oil.



quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:

And the proof is where................

You haven't shown anything that proves oil is the culprit.

Car mfgs have been sued over sludge issues. Not because of oil, but for faulty designs or wrong recommendations. (Mercedes equipment telling people they could go up to 20K on mineral oil for example.)

This thread itself gives the nod to good engine design, along with quality oil, meaning API certified, and reasonable oil changes, for the lack of sludge.

I know that you're attempting a synlube push through the back door, but no one is buying it.

Group III oil, such as Castrol, works just fine. So does a quality filter.
This is copied off an Amsoil site proving that Benz only specifies synthetic

<<<<<<Mercedes-Benz should be commended for specifying synthetic lubricants for their superior performance and for extending drains to minimize the adverse effects of used motor oil in the environment. As time goes on, there will be an increasing number of companies who will do the same. But that won't happen if the oil industry can help it. They are actively working to keep the status quo, promoting many more oil changes than necessary, wasting precious resources, and creating the need to dispose of more pollutants in form of used motor oil.>>>>>>>>

The Benz sludge/wear/issue/lawsuit is because customers installed cheap mineral based oil on a system/engine designed for synthetic...probably group IV/European spec.

The oil change monitor uses algorithms only.......it doesn't know when the owner installs the wrong oil. The dealers were at fault as well using cheapo bulk oil and this resulted in lawsuit.

There was an issue with Brake fluid years ago in the US causing issues in the Benz cars with brake system seals. When the Benz techs(USA)contacted overseas techs with the issue..... the first question asked by the German techs was............you guys are changing your customers brake fluid annually aren't you? The US tech response was............ummmm......what.....you guys change brake fluid in Europe every year!!! The US techs also didn't read the tech manual which did stipulate the brake fluid change interval.......go figure!!

Well...the Germans had to change the brake seal technology to deal with older brake fluid rather than stipulate annual brake fluid changes for the Americans who don't know any better. They assumed everyone did what they did....change brake fluid often/yearly. The German Brake fluid is also been improved longer drain intervals now days.

By the way.......I change my brake fluid every two years with Synthetic brake fluid. I could use the lifetime stuff which I did in the past......but salt corrosion ate through my break line causing me to bleed out the fluid. I use the cheap store bought synthetic dot 4 for now every two years.

The Moral of the story is that information doesn't always transfer overseas when it should...or incorrect assumptions are made leading to issues like above. However......all this proves is that top synthetic oil group IV/V is best!! The information/misinformation also finally does 'catch up' and resolve itself.

Now you might be interested how I know this story.........Well....I used to work for a Mercedes dealer.

I also used to be rep for many car dealers/shops in both selling and training of Diagnostic automotive equipment. Ever hear of Sun Electric or Snap on Tools? That was me!


Kirk
Last edited by captainkirk
quote:
Originally posted by inHaliburton:
Captain, they don't answer my queries!

Could it be that I'm on their ignore list?



Trajen did mention you were on his ignore list on an earlier post.......who knows....who cares........I wouldn't even bother yourself with all that nonsense talk spewed by Him/them/whatever.

Remember,they,he(trajen,nuke) is on my ignore list.....I don't exchange any longer with them/him.

It makes no sense to exchange with their nonsense/drivel that is meant to distort good information/facts into whatever twisted bizarre agenda they are serving or amusing themselves with!!

They were only background noise anyway with all that drivel!

Now we can finally have strictly professional/sensible/friendly exchanges of information the way it should be.

Kirk
Last edited by captainkirk
inhal has his own answer.

Originally posted by inHaliburton:
Blah blah blah. Yada yada yada. Gimme gimme gimme. You have to gimme this. You have to gimme that. I dewmand to know this. I demand to know that. You owe me this, you owe me that. I need instant gratification. I behave just like my spoiled rotten teeny bopper kid.
pages—of the same old crap. I'm too lazy to read. Same blenders from schools of higher learning and weekend driveway oil changers types asking the same dumb old stuff. Mud slingers at best.

Describes you to a T.


Add to that, a propensity to post things that have nothing to do with a topic. What does a Z4 with a sludged up engine, not blown up as you claim, caused by synlube have to do with the fact that the engine of the OP is nice and clean?

Then we have kurk. Claims oil is the cause of sludge, and yet posts links that show otherwise.

Then makes claims that using a Grp IV or V oil will prevent it. (Never mind the claims that M1 is not a Grp IV, something that again he can't prove.)

Makes that claim, and yet uses synlube. Miro must be ticked off by now.

And still, no back up for that CTS claim. Very typical.
Last edited by trajan
Trajan: Kirk and the alter ego Inhaliburton, will never answer any questions, as these boobs don't have the answers.

I believe they post here, as they have been banned from all the other sites. They have been on better behaviour as of late, as they're probably down to their last chance here as well.

They will never post anything of relevance, but I give them credit for copying and pasting...Though they should read through, what they link, as it usually refutes any point, they were trying to make.
I know.

I don't see why this inhal person harps on the Z4. Strange that he demands what he and his alter ego fail to provide over and over.

Just for kicks, I asked the owner if he would give all the info wanted.

He said if they posted a nice letter apologizing for their attitude, and explain why, in detail, they need all this information, he'll consider it.

But, given the fact that one knows very little about oil, and the other isn't even savy enough to stay on topic, plus the overwhelming fact that neither have as yet proven a need to know, he is doubtful.
Last edited by trajan
quote:
Originally posted by Taterandnoodles:
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:
Check this out regarding wear tests.


http://www.animegame.com/cars/Oil%20Tests.pdf


Well check this video out about using a timken (1 arm bandit) for product demonstation.

http://www.amsoil.com/video/AM...n_Series_Videos.aspx



Ok.......But Amsoil does show on their website what the 4172 four ball wear shows for most of their lubes. The original link I pasted seemed to indicated RP had the most EP protection.

Can you show otherwise.......what is the truth?

Check this out.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/...wflat&Number=1589827
Yeh Kerk is totally lost as far as anything that requires up to date data. He cannot accept that sludge is not an issue.

He's kinda of like a Chatty Kathy Doll, you pull a string on it's chest and it blabs about sludge.

My vehicles are not infected with this sludge virus, nor any of my friends.

This sludge issue must be big among Yugo users thus the tendancy to use goop in the motors.

I believe the thread was started mentioning the complete lack of sludge in an engine. Perhaps the boob should start his own sludge thread where he and his alter ego (himself) can comment back and forth telling each other (himself) what a great post that was
From page six, one of his own links. It bears repeating.

Industry experts say modern engines are even more prone to sludge build up than older ones. So what’s the cause, and why is it making a comeback?

There are several key reasons.

Crankcase Ventilation.
Oil vapour and combustion gasses must be removed, usually by being channelled through the combustion process.
If these gasses are not disposed of efficiently, sludge will form. Some modern breather systems are more successful than others.

Temperature.
Changes to the positioning of the Catalytic Converter have led to changes in temperature, hot and cold spots, in and around the engine. Hot spots bake oil, cold spots cause acid and sludge.

Crankcase Acidity.
Modern fuels produce much more acid when burnt. A proportion of this acidity enters the crankcase. Experts say that long term engine wear is now as likely to be down to acidity as friction.

Tighter Tolerances.
Engines are no longer manufactured down to Thousandths but Microns. Tighter tolerances mean engines are
using less oil, and as a result customers fail to check levels and miss oil changes

Poor Maintenance.
Drivers who miss recommended oil changes are without doubt contributing to the problem. Lease vehicle drivers especially are quoted as being among the worst for neglecting DIY level checks.

City Driving.
Constant stop/start city driving accelerates sludge formation. Drivers who spend most of their time in urban traffi c should be advised to book oil change services more regularly.

If you do have a sludge prone engine, you should change the oil using the owners manual "severe service" guidelines.

If you want to run a PCMO 25,000 miles, do it. Just blame who you see in the mirror for any sludge or whatnot.
Looks like sludge/engine black death just won't go away!!!

http://www.wynnsnz.co.nz/show-news.php?id=23


The solution.........use 100% percent PAO Group IV/V synthetic.........or use cheap oil.........then get sludge...........and then flush it out(maybe), with expensive and harmful chemicals.

I say it's better to avoid it in the first place!

This is a quote......

Performance
[edit] Advantages

The technical advantages of synthetic motor oils include:[citation needed]

* Measurably better low and high temperature viscosity performance
* Better chemical & shear stability
* Decreased evaporative loss
* Resistance to oxidation, thermal breakdown and oil sludge problems
* Extended drain intervals with the environmental benefit of less oil waste.
* Improved fuel economy in certain engine configurations.
* Better lubrication on cold starts
* Longer engine life
Last edited by captainkirk
It's almost a 'No-Brainer'....that synthetic oil is this much better.......why even take a chance putting cheap oil in your engine that cost several thousand dollars alone?

I work hard for my money and want the best for engines. Synthetic oil is cheap insurance. Why risk it?

Check this out....

http://advancedlubetech.com/le...versus-petroleum-oil

This is another link that shows not only protection from sludge,but also 'dry starts'...

Dry damaging starts causes a good portion of the engine wear that occurs. This fact is another very important reason to use premium synthetics........to help lube the engine at start up. This might be just as important as sludge prevention..

http://www.carsdirect.com/car-...and-conventional-oil


This one is straight from Noria showing the benefits of synthetics. It shows sludge is an issue at the start of the article.

http://www.machinerylubricatio...nal-vs-synthetic-oil
Last edited by captainkirk
So my take Trajan is, if you follow oil change intervals, that are not outrageously long, then you should have no issues. This also requires the owner to keep up on maintenance.

This is a disposeable society today and cars along with just about everything else is marketed for a quick turnover. So people don't necessarily take care of what they own.

Todays modern dino oils are more than up to the task. If the car is spec'd for synthetic then use it. If the area in which you live in see's extreme's then it is of benefit.

My advice to someone reading these posts is don't listen to the hype, or the shill's who are close to being banned from this site. We know who those people (person) are/is.
Deltona Dave: Your pictures show what I would expect from an engine using quality dino's. Just another example that synthetic oils are not necessary for all.

Sludge is an overhyped issue plain and simple. The vast majority of cars on the road will never have an issue. I guess that is why the majority of cars do not use synthetic oils. Use dino oils with confidence if not required by vehicle make/model.
quote:
This is a disposeable society today and cars along with just about everything else is marketed for a quick turnover.



Disposable being the word when your engines blows up with sludge using a sludge prone mineral based oil.

SLUDGE = QUICK TURNOVER...........with mineral based oil. Good marketing strategy if you want to sell more cars.........use cheap mineral oil,and get a new car very soon. Very true indeed!

Synthetic oil = very slow turnover of cars. Bad marketing strategy if you want to sell more cars.

If you want to keep your car and save money........use 100% premium synthetic oil,not to mention the better fuel economy.
Yes Trajan the tendancy now is to lease vehicles to people who care not about upkeep. Like I have mentioned only a boob would recommend one type of oil for all.


If the vehicle requires synthetic, it is one thing, but only the ignorant would make a blanket statement.

Sludge is an issue for those lonely middle age men, desperately looking for attention on internet forums.

Haven't seen sludge nor has anybody I know.
Synthetic is better than mineral in almost every way, but costs more.

However if you don't have a high performance or exotic engine, or a known sludger, or sees severe service, or spends its life near the Artic circle, mineral oil will do just fine.

IMO anyway.

More important perhaps is using the correct viscosity.

My last two cars went 140k miles on 5-30 mineral oil with no sludge.

This one? Synthetic 0w-30 or 40 all the way.

Rule #1 with me is when I buy a used car, all the vital fluids get changed. This one was an exception as it was under the 4yr/50k warranty.
This is a poster on this forum who absolutely states he has no sludge issues and mineral oil is fine and will not cause sludge.

Looks like this guy has sludge issues after all. I wonder why he lied all that time?

<<<<Well it was good that it worked in your engine. For other people it seems it did not work in that same application. I did understand what I read regardless, as many cases happen to be documented, as well as success stories as well. Like many other products, it seems to be hit or miss, on whether it will work.

I can report for my Ford Ranger, I noticed no difference after using this product. If I find the need to use a cleaning agent, on my car again, I may try the Lubegard flush as it seems to be a gentle flush, or maybe MMO. I can use both products and it's still cheaper than 1 dose of the ARX. If they don't work, well neither did anything else.>>>>>

This message has been edited. Last edited by: ((((((Nucleardawg))))))), Wed May 05 2010 10:43 AM
The simple fact is: the overwhelming majority of new cars manufactured, have the factory fill with dino oil. Those are the only facts pertinent to a debate...The rest is just background noise.

Are synthetics useful? of course...Are they necessary? only in certain vehicles...Are synthetics better then dino oils? of course...Those are the facts....The rest is just background noise.