New Car Warranty using Amsoil...

quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
I'm not talking about Bitog I'm talking about a Honda service writer Tim. I figured you'd ref that thread.

There are a lot of stories floating around about people having issues with Amsoil ATF. Look you'll find them.

Just like the issues they're having with their oil filters.

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So one quote from a Honda service writer about one transmission outweighs dozens of testimonials on BITOG? I've looked in and posted 5 threads so far and haven't found any AMSOIL ATF issues yet. They all said the AMSOIL ATF was better than the Honda Z1. Please post the issues about people having issues with the AMSOIL ATF. Several mentioned they got the idea to switch from the Honda Z1 to AMSOIL from the rave reviews AMSOIL got in Honda forums.
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
Here are some Honda Techs and an Amsoil rep going at it. Seems you guys quote the same junk, is that how you were trained? Clones?
Junk? What junk? I was trained as a chemist and research scientist. I don't know how the other AMSOIL rep was trained. We probably read similar AMSOIL and competitor technical information, motor oil publications, tribology books and testing.

quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:I'd take the word of a Honda tech first.
They both state their case. But the tie breaker is all the Honda customer posts that used both and prefer AMSOIL over the Honda Z1.

Also, take a look at the MSDS for the Honda Z1. "Refined Mineral oil" 80-85% Hydrocrack and Hydrotreated paraffinic oil" Flash Point 186C min.
Compare to AMSOIL. 100% Synthetic Universal Automatic Transmission Fluid .
Flash Point 220C.

I also can not find the Honda Z-1 Product Data Sheets that list product specifications, yet AMSOIL's is easily found. You have to wonder if it is because they don't want consumers to compare specifications and test results.

So the AMSOIL uses a much better chemical synthetic base oil and a much higher flash point than the petroleum nonsynthetic base Z1. I know which I would rather use. No wonder those that have used both, pick AMSOIL.
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
Even my own mechanic, when I had the tranny/rear end fluid changed, told me it was best to stick with the mfg approved juice.

Even though the car isn't under warranty.

And he lets me bring in my own.
Why did he tell you that? Which vehicle tranny/rear end was this for? What mfg approved juice did you use?
quote:
Also, take a look at the MSDS for the Honda Z1. "Refined Mineral oil" 80-85% Hydrocrack and Hydrotreated paraffinic oil" Flash Point 186C min.
Compare to AMSOIL. 100% Synthetic Universal Automatic Transmission Fluid .
Flash Point 220C.


Tim, you seem to operate under the assumption that its all about basestock. Honda may utilize the stated base oil due to their inherent ability to better handle and additive package. Perhaps Honda has identified a specific friction modifier that wouldn't stay supspended in 100% synthetic basestock.

quote:
So the AMSOIL uses a much better chemical synthetic base oil and a much higher flash point than the petroleum nonsynthetic base Z1. I know which I would rather use. No wonder those that have used both, pick AMSOIL.


Maybe Amsoil needs a higher flashpoint to compensate for missing friction modifier. Please list those that have used both. They way the statement reads is that it is all Amsoil users.
quote:
Originally posted by johnpr3:
Please list those that have used both. They way the statement reads is that it is all Amsoil users.
John, I listed them previously. Here the are again:
I'm reading at BITOG http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/...=1902558#Post1902558 that they seem to prefer AMSOIL ATF over the Honda Z1. It is unanimous so far in that thread. And in this BITOG thread http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/...umber=1852119&page=2 . And this BITOG thread http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/...umber=1631140&page=7 .
And this at BITOG http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/...wflat&Number=1107830 .
And this BITOG http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/...umber=1253297&page=2 .
The proof is in the pudding.
Much as I don't really want to take sides, as I have nothing against Amsoil.....

It's to me, really starting to sound like Amsoil thinks it knows better than those who design and build engines. And have been doing it for far longer than Amsoil has even exsisted.

And that just isn't so. Swill...er synlube acts the same way.

See, this is why I won't use non approved oils. Any oil can claim anything they want. But unless they submit to the auto maker's testing and prove it, that's all it is. A claim.

When it comes to my car, I am the court that you appear before. And the court is not interested in what you think/know/claim, but what you can prove.

And unless you are on the mfg approval list, then you haven't proved anything, and your case is dismissed.
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
Much as I don't really want to take sides, as I have nothing against Amsoil.....

It's to me, really starting to sound like Amsoil thinks it knows better than those who design and build engines. And have been doing it for far longer than Amsoil has even exsisted.

And that just isn't so. Swill...er synlube acts the same way.

See, this is why I won't use non approved oils. Any oil can claim anything they want. But unless they submit to the auto maker's testing and prove it, that's all it is. A claim.

When it comes to my car, I am the court that you appear before. And the court is not interested in what you think/know/claim, but what you can prove.

And unless you are on the mfg approval list, then you haven't proved anything, and your case is dismissed.
If the manufacture requires you to be on their "approved" list, then I would agree with you. But they don't.

Mobil 1 5w30 is on many manufacturers "approved" lists, but was shown by Valvoline and Ashland that it didn't even pass basic API tests for engine wear. No thanks.

There are motor oils that are API certified, that didn't pass API certification tests when API tested them off the shelf. No thanks.

I'd rather use something that has been proven to be much better by undisputed independent ASTM testing and backed by a much better warranty for much longer oil change intervals. More time and money saved, and better for the environment.

So I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
Tim, I talked with my Amsoil rep last nite and it seems doing extended drains is not the easiest thing to do without some work and money by the guy doing the extended drains with Amsoil. He told me if your car is under warranty and the owners manual calls for a 5000 mile OCI and you want to run Amsoil for one year and lets pick 25,000 miles, you better be getting a UOA done every 5000 miles. He also said that each UOA at 5000 miles better look as good as Blackstones Universal Averages for a 5000 mile OCI. He said most of his customers are lucky to get about 13,000 miles out of the Amsoil motor oil while they are under warranty becuase of the driving they do.

Lets say I do not want to do these UOA's and I have a problem at 19,000 miles, some lubricated part in the engine goes bad, I call Amsoil up, they want me to send in a sample of the oil, they contact me after doing an Oil Analysis and say sorry we cannot help you because your TBN was 0.0 they go onto say that you should have been doing UOA's every 5000 miles and you fall under severe service and this oil should have been changed sooner. If Amsoil comes out to investigate and they find anything that is not right, they will say sorry, if you refuse to cooperate, then they will not honor the warranty.

So, I am using a 25,000 mile or one year oil and I have to get under the car every 5000 miles to pull an oil sample, heck if I am under the car taking a sample I might as well change the oil. You better believe even if you do get UOA's done and you have a problem, Amsoil will look for anything that will get them out of paying up. Suppose Amsoil does pay up becuase it is there motor oil's fault, they could turn around and say look we are not going to warranty our oil for one year, use the XL Line instead, I do not think Amsoil is going to take the chance of having to replace another engine or get it fixed, they may do this once or twice, but not three times.

Then we need to look at the true cost of running Amsoil for one year versus using Pennzoil YB at 5000 mile OCI's, and we can throw in Pennzoil Platinum too.

The 2010 Mustang GT takes 6 quarts of oil, but we will need to purchase 2 more quarts of oil for makeup oil and whatever we loose doing a UOA.

8 quarts of Amsoil 0W-30 equals $62.96
1 Oil Filter equals $12.97
PC Fee for a year equals $20.00
Shipping equals $9.85

We are up to $105.78, and yes you need those 2 extra quarts or at least one quart because if you add any other brand of motor oil to the Amsoil motor oil and a problem arises the warranty will be void.

We need to do a UOA every 5000 miles, so 5 UOA's in 25,000 miles.

Blackstone UOA is about $22.50 and add $10.00 for a TBN Test
So $32.50 times 5 UOA's equals $162.50 and add that to the $105.78 and you get $268.28

We need 6 quarts of either PYB or PP, so times 5 oil changes that is 30 quarts of oil, we are going to buy 6 five quart jugs of PP or PYB and on each OCI we will use a 5 quart jug and pour another quart out of the other 5 quart jug.

Pennzoil Platinum is $21.73 a jug with tax, times 6 five quart jugs equals $130.38
PYB is $13.25 a jug with tax, times 6 five quart jugs equals $79.50

We also need 5 Motorcraft Oil Filters, so $3.67 times 5 equals $18.35

Pennzoil Platinum with the oil filters comes to $148.73
PYB with the oil filters comes to $97.85
Amsoil motor oil with an oil filter and the other hidden costs comes to $105.78, take a quart off if you don't want to buy 2 quarts and you are at $97.91

If you want to skimp on those UOA's, guess what, you are up the creek with Amsoil, you need documentation to prove your case with Amsoil.
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
And Ford, et al, doesn't require an UOA for warranty. All they require is that you follow said warranty conditions.


Agreed. AFAIK, as long as you follow the car mfg OCI you don't need a UOA or anything special. Just proof that you bought a mfg approved spec'd oil and the proper filter. Simple just follow directions, and enjoy your wheels.


If API certification, the proper grade of oil, and the recommended interval didn't matter then the OM would most likely read something like this. Add what ever oil you want, run it as long as you want, just keep it full.

AD
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:


If API certification, the proper grade of oil, and the recommended interval didn't matter then the OM would most likely read something like this. Add what ever oil you want, run it as long as you want, just keep it full.

AD


Back in the Model T days that was probably true Big Grin
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
Tim, I talked with my Amsoil rep last nite and it seems doing extended drains is not the easiest thing to do without some work and money by the guy doing the extended drains with Amsoil. He told me if your car is under warranty and the owners manual calls for a 5000 mile OCI and you want to run Amsoil for one year and lets pick 25,000 miles, you better be getting a UOA done every 5000 miles. He also said that each UOA at 5000 miles better look as good as Blackstones Universal Averages for a 5000 mile OCI. He said most of his customers are lucky to get about 13,000 miles out of the Amsoil motor oil while they are under warranty becuase of the driving they do.
I think that is poor advice. No UOA is required when following AMSOIL's extended drain service intervals. Why pay for a bunch of UOA's when AMSOIL has never caused part failure in 38 years?

quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear: Lets say I do not want to do these UOA's and I have a problem at 19,000 miles, some lubricated part in the engine goes bad, I call Amsoil up, they want me to send in a sample of the oil, they contact me after doing an Oil Analysis and say sorry we cannot help you because your TBN was 0.0 they go onto say that you should have been doing UOA's every 5000 miles and you fall under severe service and this oil should have been changed sooner. If Amsoil comes out to investigate and they find anything that is not right, they will say sorry, if you refuse to cooperate, then they will not honor the warranty.
Wrong again. If the part fails due to a manufacturing defect, the vehicle manufacturer pays. If the part fails due to AMSOIL (never happened in 38 years) then AMSOIL pays.

quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear: So, I am using a 25,000 mile or one year oil and I have to get under the car every 5000 miles to pull an oil sample, heck if I am under the car taking a sample I might as well change the oil. You better believe even if you do get UOA's done and you have a problem, Amsoil will look for anything that will get them out of paying up. Suppose Amsoil does pay up becuase it is there motor oil's fault, they could turn around and say look we are not going to warranty our oil for one year, use the XL Line instead, I do not think Amsoil is going to take the chance of having to replace another engine or get it fixed, they may do this once or twice, but not three times.
Wrong. AMSOIL does not require UOA's if you follow their oil recommendations. The only time they require UOAs are if you take the oil past the interval they recommend.

quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear: Then we need to look at the true cost of running Amsoil for one year versus using Pennzoil YB at 5000 mile OCI's, and we can throw in Pennzoil Platinum too.
AMSOIL has already done this for you at http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g1971.pdf?zo=1181889 . AMSOIL cost was $44.50 for 25,000 miles, Pennzoil Platinum was $162.25 for 25,000 miles. This is why 3500 Texas State Police have used AMSOIL for the past 10 years, as has 15,000 other government agencies. It saves them time and money and better for the environment.


quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear: If you want to skimp on those UOA's, guess what, you are up the creek with Amsoil, you need documentation to prove your case with Amsoil.
Again, those UOA's are not required. You will not find that recommendation at www.amsoil.com or anywhere else. The only time you need to run a UOA is if you want to exceed AMSOIL's oil change recommendations. Some people never change their AMSOIL, they just run UOA's when recommended by AMSOIL to verify the oil and engine are fine. Sounds like you need to find a more knowledgeable dealer. You can also contact AMSOIL tech service to verify. AMSOIL extended changes are indeed the easiest thing to do.
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
And Ford, et al, doesn't require an UOA for warranty. All they require is that you follow said warranty conditions.
Here is what GM says, and Ford will say the same:

“The New Vehicle Warranty would not be void simply because an owner failed to use proper engine oils or did not perform maintenance at the prescribed intervals. Warranty applicability is contingent upon the cause of failure.”
Service Policies and Procedures Department,
General Motors Corporation “
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:

If API certification, the proper grade of oil, and the recommended interval didn't matter then the OM would most likely read something like this. Add what ever oil you want, run it as long as you want, just keep it full.

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This is what GM says:

“The New Vehicle Warranty would not be void simply because an owner failed to use proper engine oils or did not perform maintenance at the prescribed intervals. Warranty applicability is contingent upon the cause of failure.”
Service Policies and Procedures Department,
General Motors Corporation “
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
Tim, I talked with my Amsoil rep last nite and it seems doing extended drains is not the easiest thing to do without some work and money by the guy doing the extended drains with Amsoil. He told me if your car is under warranty and the owners manual calls for a 5000 mile OCI and you want to run Amsoil for one year and lets pick 25,000 miles, you better be getting a UOA done every 5000 miles. He also said that each UOA at 5000 miles better look as good as Blackstones Universal Averages for a 5000 mile OCI. He said most of his customers are lucky to get about 13,000 miles out of the Amsoil motor oil while they are under warranty becuase of the driving they do.
He is wrong. No UOA is required when following AMSOIL's extended drain service intervals.

The man is giving his customers sound advise. Would you want to run oil with a TBN of ZERO. The UOA will give a snapshot of how the oil is doing.



Keep in mind, you say "Amsoil pays". They don't pay their insurance company pays, we all know how insurance companies pay.


AMSOIL is just saying they are not responsible for the previously used lubricants, maintenance and drain intervals before AMSOIL, should those be found to cause the failure. After the installation of AMSOIL's products, you are warranted by AMSOIL's service recommendations.

Again previously used lubricants is the way out for the insurance company. Hire the right people to make the determination of what failed and you can get them to say anything you want. Again, have a problem hire a lawyer. Use something the automaker endorses, make life easier in the event of a problem.

AD
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
Tim, I talked with my Amsoil rep last nite and it seems doing extended drains is not the easiest thing to do without some work and money by the guy doing the extended drains with Amsoil. He told me if your car is under warranty and the owners manual calls for a 5000 mile OCI and you want to run Amsoil for one year and lets pick 25,000 miles, you better be getting a UOA done every 5000 miles. He also said that each UOA at 5000 miles better look as good as Blackstones Universal Averages for a 5000 mile OCI. He said most of his customers are lucky to get about 13,000 miles out of the Amsoil motor oil while they are under warranty becuase of the driving they do.
He is wrong. No UOA is required when following AMSOIL's extended drain service intervals.

The man is giving his customers sound advise. Would you want to run oil with a TBN of ZERO. The UOA will give a snapshot of how the oil is doing.



Keep in mind, you say "Amsoil pays". They don't pay their insurance company pays, we all know how insurance companies pay.


AMSOIL is just saying they are not responsible for the previously used lubricants, maintenance and drain intervals before AMSOIL, should those be found to cause the failure. After the installation of AMSOIL's products, you are warranted by AMSOIL's service recommendations.

Again previously used lubricants is the way out for the insurance company. Hire the right people to make the determination of what failed and you can get them to say anything you want. Again, have a problem hire a lawyer. Use something the automaker endorses, make life easier in the event of a problem.

AD
Please show where AMSOIL was the cause of a failure in 38 years. Please show where any consumer or government agency has any issues with AMSOIL's warranty. They wouldn't be in business for 38 years if their products did not perform as advertised. Please show where any AMSOIL customer had to hire a lawyer. If the automaker endorses an oil that failed, how does that make life easier? The automaker warrants against defective parts, not defective oil.
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Big Bear:
Tim, I talked with my Amsoil rep last nite and it seems doing extended drains is not the easiest thing to do without some work and money by the guy doing the extended drains with Amsoil. He told me if your car is under warranty and the owners manual calls for a 5000 mile OCI and you want to run Amsoil for one year and lets pick 25,000 miles, you better be getting a UOA done every 5000 miles. He also said that each UOA at 5000 miles better look as good as Blackstones Universal Averages for a 5000 mile OCI. He said most of his customers are lucky to get about 13,000 miles out of the Amsoil motor oil while they are under warranty becuase of the driving they do.
He is wrong. No UOA is required when following AMSOIL's extended drain service intervals.

The man is giving his customers sound advise. Would you want to run oil with a TBN of ZERO. The UOA will give a snapshot of how the oil is doing.



I think he is giving poor advice. Why pay for UOAs when the oil has proven it has not caused a parts failure in 38 years?

quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1: Keep in mind, you say "Amsoil pays". They don't pay their insurance company pays, we all know how insurance companies pay.


AMSOIL is just saying they are not responsible for the previously used lubricants, maintenance and drain intervals before AMSOIL, should those be found to cause the failure. After the installation of AMSOIL's products, you are warranted by AMSOIL's service recommendations.

Again previously used lubricants is the way out for the insurance company. Hire the right people to make the determination of what failed and you can get them to say anything you want. Again, have a problem hire a lawyer. Use something the automaker endorses, make life easier in the event of a problem.

AD
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:

quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Big Bear:
Tim, I talked with my Amsoil rep last nite and it seems doing extended drains is not the easiest thing to do without some work and money by the guy doing the extended drains with Amsoil. He told me if your car is under warranty and the owners manual calls for a 5000 mile OCI and you want to run Amsoil for one year and lets pick 25,000 miles, you better be getting a UOA done every 5000 miles. He also said that each UOA at 5000 miles better look as good as Blackstones Universal Averages for a 5000 mile OCI. He said most of his customers are lucky to get about 13,000 miles out of the Amsoil motor oil while they are under warranty becuase of the driving they do.
He is wrong. No UOA is required when following AMSOIL's extended drain service intervals.

The man is giving his customers sound advise. Would you want to run oil with a TBN of ZERO. The UOA will give a snapshot of how the oil is doing.



I think he is giving poor advice. Why pay for UOAs when the oil has proven it has not caused a parts failure in 38 years?


Only a fool would extend drain intervals without doing oil analysis. What happens when you lose an O-ring in a injector, but the oil is still under the mileage warranty? Who'se to blame? Case in point - a fleet I work with has been doing extended drains for many years...with great success. A recent oil analysis showed fuel dilution. With that information, they tested other trucks in the fleet. Many trucks in the 800k mile range were starting to show fuel dilution. The problem was quickly identified (O-rings on injectors starting to leak) and taken care of before catastrophic failure. Assuming it was Amsoil in the engine and UOA wasn't necessary and eved discouraged as a waste of money, who would be to blame if they didn't catch the problem in time? My guess is Amsoil would blame the ULSD fuel and, of course, the end user.
quote:
Originally posted by johnpr3:

Only a fool would extend drain intervals without doing oil analysis. What happens when you lose an O-ring in a injector, but the oil is still under the mileage warranty? Who'se to blame?
If the vehicle is under warranty, and the failure was due to a manufacturing defect in the O-ring, then the vehicle manufacturer pays.
quote:
Originally posted by johnpr3:Case in point - a fleet I work with has been doing extended drains for many years...with great success. A recent oil analysis showed fuel dilution. With that information, they tested other trucks in the fleet. Many trucks in the 800k mile range were starting to show fuel dilution. The problem was quickly identified (O-rings on injectors starting to leak) and taken care of before catastrophic failure. Assuming it was Amsoil in the engine and UOA wasn't necessary and eved discouraged as a waste of money, who would be to blame if they didn't catch the problem in time? My guess is Amsoil would blame the ULSD fuel and, of course, the end user.
Most fleets extend their oil change intervals with the use of UOAs. Many fleets using AMSOIL also use UOAs when extending past the AMSOIL recommendation. In both cases, they usually do not change their oil until the UOA shows they should. In either case, it would show fuel dilution. Some trucks are known to have problems with fuel dilution, and AMSOIL does not recommend extended oil change intervals unless they do UOAs. If the fuel dilution caused the failure, then AMSOIL or any oil would not be liable. However, AMSOIL has shown that their oil holds up better than Rotella, Delo, Mobil and Valvoline with high levels of fuel dilution. See http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g2752.pdf?zo=1181889 for details.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by johnpr3:

Only a fool would extend drain intervals without doing oil analysis. What happens when you lose an O-ring in a injector, but the oil is still under the mileage warranty? Who'se to blame?
If the vehicle is under warranty, and the failure was due to a manufacturing defect in the O-ring, then the vehicle manufacturer pays.
quote:
Originally posted by johnpr3:Case in point - a fleet I work with has been doing extended drains for many years...with great success. A recent oil analysis showed fuel dilution. With that information, they tested other trucks in the fleet. Many trucks in the 800k mile range were starting to show fuel dilution. The problem was quickly identified (O-rings on injectors starting to leak) and taken care of before catastrophic failure. Assuming it was Amsoil in the engine and UOA wasn't necessary and eved discouraged as a waste of money, who would be to blame if they didn't catch the problem in time? My guess is Amsoil would blame the ULSD fuel and, of course, the end user.
Most fleets extend their oil change intervals with the use of UOAs. Many fleets using AMSOIL also use UOAs when extending past the AMSOIL recommendation. In both cases, they usually do not change their oil until the UOA shows they should. In either case, it would show fuel dilution. Some trucks are known to have problems with fuel dilution, and AMSOIL does not recommend extended oil change intervals unless they do UOAs. If the fuel dilution caused the failure, then AMSOIL or any oil would not be liable. However, AMSOIL has shown that their oil holds up better than Rotella, Delo, Mobil and Valvoline with high levels of fuel dilution. See http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g2752.pdf?zo=1181889 for details.


With regards to the mileage warranty, I was refering to the oil.

As for the UOAs. It appeared that you were recommending that money shouldn't be wasted on UOAs when going past OEM recommended service intervals. I am glad to see Amsoil recommends oil analysis for fleets and larger engines.
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:

Let's say it was a lubrication failure, like a rod or some other lubricated part that goes bad, your telling me that if Ford denies my warranty because I did extended drains with Amsoil, so Amsoil is going to jump in and take care of this in a few days, that sounds really optimistic, I just might have to go and let my Amsoil Rep read this thread and see what he thinks.
It depends why the lubricated part went bad. If the lubricated part goes bad, because of a manufacturing defect, Ford pays. If the lubricant failed, then AMSOIL pays. It shouldn't take more than a few days to determine the cause of the failure. You might consider calling AMSOIL technical to verify.


I went ahead and called up the Amsoil Tech Line this morning and I got some different information than what you stated above.

The Tech Guy told me that if the Lubricant failed, Amsoil will investigate as to why the lubricated part failed. I asked him how long this process could take, he said it could take a couple of months, I then said is there a possibility this could drag out longer, like 6 months to a year, and he said YES.

So, In this scenario, I can have Ford saying my part went bad becuase of my extended OCI, and then Amsoil will be saying it was not the lubricants fault, but a problem with the part that failed, if Amsoil and Ford are going back and forth this could easily drag on for more than a year. So my car that I am making payments on is just sitting, and I am supposed to drive a rental car around until this is taken care of, who is going to pay for the rental car, me, so I pickup a cheap rental for $16.00 a day, that comes out to $480.00 a month.

Lets say it takes 6 months to clear everything up, $480.00 a month times 6 equals $2880.00

So when Amsoil and Ford are battling this out, who is the loser, its me, since I have to wait many months or longer, and if a rental car is too expensive since I realize I could be spending thousands of dollars on a rental car while I am still making my car payments, I may decide that I have to go out and buy a used car, and you can bet with my experience with extended drains that I will not be doing them on the used car I purchased while I wait for this whole thing to play out.

You are right in that you do not have to do a UOA every 5000 miles, but the Amsoil Tech Guy said this would be good if a problem arises, my Amsoil rep gave me good advice about doing a UOA every 5000 miles since he is looking after my best interests.

The Amsoil Tech Guy said if you are really worried about a problem arising when you are still under warranty with the manufacture that it would be best to use the Amsoil XL Line of Oil's.

He also told me if you read something strange on some internet forum that some Amsoil Salesman posted and you have doubts, just call us on the Tech Line.

Tim tells us this whole process could only take a few days, and the Amsoil Tech Guy tells me it can take a couple of months or more, I think he was being conservative in his estimate of how long the process would take to get resolved, playing " Devil's Advocate" this process could take 2 to 3 years to get resolved.

This whole Extended Warranty Thing is getting real complicated and it seems an Amsoil Dealer and the Amsoil Tech Guy are not on the same page as to how long it will take for a warranty issue to get resolved, the Ford dealer probably has good lawyers and can drag there feet for a long time, since that is the case I will just stick with what the manufacture says and do 5000 mile OCI's with whatever oil I choose too use.

Tim, you better not come back with, " Well the Amsoil Tech Guy was Wrong", becuase anyone with half a brain will not buy that statement.
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:

I went ahead and called up the Amsoil Tech Line this morning and I got some different information than what you stated above.
Which Tech Guy did you speak to?

quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:The Tech Guy told me that if the Lubricant failed, Amsoil will investigate as to why the lubricated part failed. I asked him how long this process could take, he said it could take a couple of months, I then said is there a possibility this could drag out longer, like 6 months to a year, and he said YES.
Did he mention that they could authorize and pay for repairs immediately once they got confirmation from the vehicle manufacturer that they said the oil failed?

quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:So, In this scenario, I can have Ford saying my part went bad becuase of my extended OCI,
They have to state and prove the oil failed. Extended change intervals have nothing to do with it if the oil did not fail.
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear: and then Amsoil will be saying it was not the lubricants fault, but a problem with the part that failed,
AMSOIL would have to prove the oil did not fail and the part did by 3rd party analysis.
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear: if Amsoil and Ford are going back and forth this could easily drag on for more than a year. So my car that I am making payments on is just sitting, and I am supposed to drive a rental car around until this is taken care of, who is going to pay for the rental car, me, so I pickup a cheap rental for $16.00 a day, that comes out to $480.00 a month.
Since AMSOIL would authorize repairs immediately upon getting written notification from Ford that the oil failed, why would your car sit around any longer than normal?

quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear: You are right in that you do not have to do a UOA every 5000 miles,
Told ya.
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear: but the Amsoil Tech Guy said this would be good if a problem arises, my Amsoil rep gave me good advice about doing a UOA every 5000 miles since he is looking after my best interests.
But since AMSOIL has never failed, you would likely be wasting time and money on a UOA for that purpose. But if you want to show that something from Ford is failing and want to catch it early, then you can do that if you want. Otherwise, save your money and wait for the part to fail and Ford will pay.

quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear: The Amsoil Tech Guy said if you are really worried about a problem arising when you are still under warranty with the manufacture that it would be best to use the Amsoil XL Line of Oil's.
That is what I said. For someones peace of mind if using an API certified oil provides that for you. But as AMSOIL, consumer law and the vehicle manufacturers own words, it is not necessary. Again read "Warranties and AMSOIL" http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g2488.pdf?zo=1181889 .

quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:He also told me if you read something strange on some internet forum that some Amsoil Salesman posted and you have doubts, just call us on the Tech Line.
Exactly what I suggested. It would have even been better to email your question in writing and then post the question and response here.

quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:Tim tells us this whole process could only take a few days, and the Amsoil Tech Guy tells me it can take a couple of months or more, I think he was being conservative in his estimate of how long the process would take to get resolved, playing " Devil's Advocate" this process could take 2 to 3 years to get resolved.
I said it would only take a few days for AMSOIL to authorize repairs when they receive a letter from the vehicle manufacturer that the oil failed. If AMSOIL proves that the manufacturer defect caused the problem, they would go after the manufacturer for reimbursement to AMSOIL. Just like I said.

quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:This whole Extended Warranty Thing is getting real complicated and it seems an Amsoil Dealer and the Amsoil Tech Guy are not on the same page as to how long it will take for a warranty issue to get resolved, the Ford dealer probably has good lawyers and can drag there feet for a long time, since that is the case I will just stick with what the manufacture says and do 5000 mile OCI's with whatever oil I choose too use.
I see nothing that the AMSOIL tech or I said that shows we are not on the same page. Only your interpretation of what we each said.

quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:Tim, you better not come back with, " Well the Amsoil Tech Guy was Wrong", becuase anyone with half a brain will not buy that statement.
Why would I say that? I am in complete agreement with what he said. Just not in complete agreement with what you said.

I am still looking for the name, phone number, or dealer number for your neighbor. I've searched some info I have and see no dealer in New York that has more sales and at a higher level than I.
quote:
Since AMSOIL would authorize repairs immediately upon getting written notification from Ford that the oil failed, why would your car sit around any longer than normal?


Because Amsoil will want to investigate why the oil failed, you think Amsoil is going to just fork over the money to fix the car once Ford tells them there oil is spent. In case you do not remember, in the Amsoil Warranty they clearly state that you need to send in an Oil Sample to Amsoil, and they will also do a full investigation, and if you happen to lose your receipt that shows what you have purchased from Amsoil, then Amsoil is off the hook.

You are making this whole thing sound like the car breaks down on a Monday and Amsoil and Ford resolved this Lightening Quick and you get the car back on Friday, give me a break.
Only if an oil is determined to be the direct cause of an engine problem can a manufacturer or dealership deny warranty coverage for that specific problem. In this situation the AMSOIL warranty would apply, and the AMSOIL Technical Services Department would assist you in processing your claim and getting your vehicle repaired. That's AMSOIL's pledge to you. AMSOIL Inc. sells millions of gallons of oil per year and warranty claims are a rare occurrence. If you ever have a warranty problem with an automobile manufacturer (or snowmobile, boat, RV, motorcycle, etc...) or dealership, AMSOIL will assist you by analyzing the problem and providing data supporting the fact that repairs should be made under the vehicle manufacturer's warranty. If this does not resolve the problem. AMSOIL will submit a claim with their insurance company and request that an adjuster have the vehicle repaired and pursue legal settlement later if necessary. The fact is there never has been an engine failure attributed to the non-performance of AMSOIL products, and we do not expect there ever will be. If it ever did, both AMSOIL and their insurance company would make certain your problem was resolved.

Tim, I got this from the Amsoil Site, so tell me how long will it take for this situation to get resolved, how long does the claim process with Amsoil's insurance take to get resolved.

Then we need to have some insurance adjuster come and check on things, this is sounding like a long process.
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
quote:
Since AMSOIL would authorize repairs immediately upon getting written notification from Ford that the oil failed, why would your car sit around any longer than normal?


Because Amsoil will want to investigate why the oil failed, you think Amsoil is going to just fork over the money to fix the car once Ford tells them there oil is spent.
Yes, if Ford Motor Company states in writing that the oil failed, not spent, and AMSOIL has received a copy, a sample of your oil, and the other items they ask for to help them find the cause of failure.
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear: In case you do not remember, in the Amsoil Warranty they clearly state that you need to send in an Oil Sample to Amsoil, and they will also do a full investigation, and if you happen to lose your receipt that shows what you have purchased from Amsoil, then Amsoil is off the hook.
When you have a repair and suspect the AMSOIL may have possibly been the problem, then contact AMSOIL Technical immediately. That way when Ford is working on their findings, AMSOIL can begin working on theirs. AMSOIL wants proof that you have AMSOIL in the engine, and one of the ways is to provide them with your receipt. If you purchase direct from AMSOIL, they will have a record of your purchase. If you buy direct from your dealer, he should issue you a receipt. I think every oil company and vehicle manufacturer recommends you keep your receipts for proof of purchase.

quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:You are making this whole thing sound like the car breaks down on a Monday and Amsoil and Ford resolved this Lightening Quick and you get the car back on Friday, give me a break.
It depends a lot on Ford. How long it takes them to do failure analysis and prove the oil failed. Once AMSOIL gets this in writing, they can authorize repairs on your car. They can later get reimbursed from Ford. Ford could also step up and authorize repairs and get reimbursed from AMSOIL if they value you as a customer.

I've never heard of any of this being a big deal and that the customer was without his car for months. Please show that this has happened.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:You are making this whole thing sound like the car breaks down on a Monday and Amsoil and Ford resolved this Lightening Quick and you get the car back on Friday, give me a break.

It depends a lot on Ford. How long it takes them to do failure analysis and prove the oil failed. Once AMSOIL gets this in writing, they can authorize repairs on your car. They can later get reimbursed from Ford. Ford could also step and authorize repairs and get reimbursed from AMSOIL if they value you as a customer.



I hope we are on the same page that this process will take sometime, so now you say it depends on Ford, sorry I am not buddies with Mr. Ford, the CEO of the Company, so the Tech Guy in a sense is correct in that it will take sometime to get everything resolved, what is the time limit on something like this getting resolved, I do not have to show any proof, you are the Amsoil Salesman, not me, show us a case where everything was smooth sailing with an Amsoil Warranty Claim.

You are really sugar coating things here, that's why I like talking with the Amsoil Tech Guy, becuase at least I will be getting closer to the truth with him.
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
Only if an oil is determined to be the direct cause of an engine problem can a manufacturer or dealership deny warranty coverage for that specific problem. In this situation the AMSOIL warranty would apply, and the AMSOIL Technical Services Department would assist you in processing your claim and getting your vehicle repaired. That's AMSOIL's pledge to you. AMSOIL Inc. sells millions of gallons of oil per year and warranty claims are a rare occurrence. If you ever have a warranty problem with an automobile manufacturer (or snowmobile, boat, RV, motorcycle, etc...) or dealership, AMSOIL will assist you by analyzing the problem and providing data supporting the fact that repairs should be made under the vehicle manufacturer's warranty. If this does not resolve the problem. AMSOIL will submit a claim with their insurance company and request that an adjuster have the vehicle repaired and pursue legal settlement later if necessary. The fact is there never has been an engine failure attributed to the non-performance of AMSOIL products, and we do not expect there ever will be. If it ever did, both AMSOIL and their insurance company would make certain your problem was resolved.

Tim, I got this from the Amsoil Site, so tell me how long will it take for this situation to get resolved, how long does the claim process with Amsoil's insurance take to get resolved.

Then we need to have some insurance adjuster come and check on things, this is sounding like a long process.
Since AMSOIL stated "there has never been an engine failure attributed to the non-performance of AMSOIL products" I think the whole discussion is moot.

So it really depends on how long Ford takes to do their part and oil analysis and to authorize repairs.

I don't see, nor have ever heard, where an AMSOIL insurance adjuster comes to check on things since AMSOIL has the oil and parts and the 3rd party analysis performed.

I have never heard of it being described as a long process.

The rare cases I have heard of are the dealership claiming the oil or extended intervals are to blame. Then a call to AMSOIL should be made. Normally, that is enough for the dealership to contact Ford and repairs are then made.
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:You are making this whole thing sound like the car breaks down on a Monday and Amsoil and Ford resolved this Lightening Quick and you get the car back on Friday, give me a break.

It depends a lot on Ford. How long it takes them to do failure analysis and prove the oil failed. Once AMSOIL gets this in writing, they can authorize repairs on your car. They can later get reimbursed from Ford. Ford could also step and authorize repairs and get reimbursed from AMSOIL if they value you as a customer.



I hope we are on the same page that this process will take sometime, so now you say it depends on Ford, sorry I am not buddies with Mr. Ford, the CEO of the Company, so the Tech Guy in a sense is correct in that it will take sometime to get everything resolved, what is the time limit on something like this getting resolved, I do not have to show any proof, you are the Amsoil Salesman, not me, show us a case where everything was smooth sailing with an Amsoil Warranty Claim.

You are really sugar coating things here, that's why I like talking with the Amsoil Tech Guy, becuase at least I will be getting closer to the truth with him.
Then I suggest you talking with the AMSOIL Tech guy and ask him your questions.
quote:
Since AMSOIL stated "there has never been an engine failure attributed to the non-performance of AMSOIL products" I think the whole discussion is moot.


I am not buying what Amsoil is saying here, I have seen to many lousy UOA's with Amsoil being spent between 13,000 and 17,000 miles. I think there have been some problems and Amsoil is just keeping quiet.

I know Amsoil makes some good products, but I have seen to many other companies say things that were really not true, so I am skeptical.

Everything Redline has told me has turned out to be true, I am just having doubts about Amsoil.
quote:
Originally posted by johnpr3:
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:

quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Big Bear:
Tim, I talked with my Amsoil rep last nite and it seems doing extended drains is not the easiest thing to do without some work and money by the guy doing the extended drains with Amsoil. He told me if your car is under warranty and the owners manual calls for a 5000 mile OCI and you want to run Amsoil for one year and lets pick 25,000 miles, you better be getting a UOA done every 5000 miles. He also said that each UOA at 5000 miles better look as good as Blackstones Universal Averages for a 5000 mile OCI. He said most of his customers are lucky to get about 13,000 miles out of the Amsoil motor oil while they are under warranty becuase of the driving they do.
He is wrong. No UOA is required when following AMSOIL's extended drain service intervals.

The man is giving his customers sound advise. Would you want to run oil with a TBN of ZERO. The UOA will give a snapshot of how the oil is doing.



I think he is giving poor advice. Why pay for UOAs when the oil has proven it has not caused a parts failure in 38 years?


Only a fool would extend drain intervals without doing oil analysis. What happens when you lose an O-ring in a injector, but the oil is still under the mileage warranty? Who'se to blame? Case in point - a fleet I work with has been doing extended drains for many years...with great success. A recent oil analysis showed fuel dilution. With that information, they tested other trucks in the fleet. Many trucks in the 800k mile range were starting to show fuel dilution. The problem was quickly identified (O-rings on injectors starting to leak) and taken care of before catastrophic failure. Assuming it was Amsoil in the engine and UOA wasn't necessary and eved discouraged as a waste of money, who would be to blame if they didn't catch the problem in time? My guess is Amsoil would blame the ULSD fuel and, of course, the end user.



Nice example, and it shows how reps giving bad advise can cost the end user big money. UOA's are a waste was the advise given here. If one of those engines in the example you gave failed it would not be oil related, Amsoil would be off the hook. I'd grab the rep that told me UOA's were a waste, and see where that would get me in court. Most likely he'd swear he didn't discuss UOA's with you and it would be your word against his. That's why these boards are nice since we have the bad advise given in writing here. Amsoil obviously has no control over what these reps say. Good thing you had the brains to do a UOA.

AD
Going with BB's above scenario, Ford is not going to pay. You used a non approved oil and went over the oci. In plain English, you failed to follow the warranty.

So now it's Amsoil vs the poor guy who used it.

Amsoil isn't going to prove their oil is at fault. That's your job. Ford doesn't have to prove they're not at fault. You failed to follow the contract.

The vice is closing on your nuts, and it isn't your hand on the handle.

Follow the mfg warranty and stay out of the vice.
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
Going with BB's above scenario, Ford is not going to pay. You used a non approved oil and went over the oci. In plain English, you failed to follow the warranty.
The Ford warranty is not contingent on an approved oil or the oci if the oil did not cause the failure. This is discussed in the links below. If the Ford part was defective, Ford pays under their warranty. Ford has to prove AMSOIL was defective, which they have not in 38 years. If Ford proves the AMSOIL was defective, AMSOIL pays. Pretty simple.



You can read what AMSOIL, the vehicle manufactures and consumer law says about AMSOIL and warranties at http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g2488.pdf?zo=1181889 .
Here is another link: http://www.amsoil.com/news/200...nties.pdf?zo=1181889 . Not sure how to make it any clearer than that.
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
Going with BB's above scenario, Ford is not going to pay. You used a non approved oil and went over the oci. In plain English, you failed to follow the warranty.
The Ford warranty is not contingent on an approved oil or the oci if the oil did not cause the failure. This is discussed in the links below. If the Ford part was defective, Ford pays under their warranty. Ford has to prove AMSOIL was defective, which they have not in 38 years. If Ford proves the AMSOIL was defective, AMSOIL pays. Pretty simple.



You can read what AMSOIL, the vehicle manufactures and consumer law says about AMSOIL and warranties at http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g2488.pdf?zo=1181889 .
Here is another link: http://www.amsoil.com/news/200...nties.pdf?zo=1181889 . Not sure how to make it any clearer than that.


I have about as much faith in Amsoil's Warranty as I do with what Tim has said in this thread, I'll pass on both and just use a cheaper oil that is just as good as Amsoil Motor Oil.
The warranty is a contract. You do not follow the obligations agreed to under the contract, you forfiet any benefit of said contract.

The manufacturer is obligated only if you follow the warranty, and you get problems anyway.

All those class action suits against the auto makers proved that.

I'm not interested in what Amsoil says about it. I don't care if it's been in the oil business for 38 years.

Ford has been in business for 107 years. Never once filed bankruptcy. Didn't go for gov't bailouts. Never, as far as I've been able to find, has had any problems stemming from using mfg approved oils in any engine they've designed.

No company that makes oil is ever going to convince me that they know better than the engine makers.

Especially if they are too cheap to have said engine makers test their oil.

How about this. Link to cases where, oh, let's say, Ford, paid. Even though the car owner violated the warranty.

No Amsoil links.
Reason NOT to use Amsoil
Pablo Offline


Registered: 10/28/02
Posts: 39312
Loc: Duvall WA - Pacific NW USA
Honestly the discussions on Noria are degrading and almost disgusting. I hope we don't reach that low. On one hand you have an Amsoil dealer who just won't let it go. He's over the top IMHO. In the other corner there appears to be a biased ring leader who thinks he's "outing" people by posting their bio information in the middle of an oil/filter thread. No knowledge to be gained there. I pretty much gave up posting on NORIA unless someone drags my name into it.
_________________________
See PABLO at oilslubesfilters.com

I actually think it is nice to find out the other occupations that Amsoil Dealers had before they started selling Amsoil.

Just pay the $35.00 fee and you are an Amsoil Dealer, and then you can give advice on what lubricants people should or should not be using.
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
The warranty is a contract. You do not follow the obligations agreed to under the contract, you forfiet any benefit of said contract.


“Installation or the use of special materials does not, in and of itself, void the New Vehicle Limited Warranties.”
Service and Parts Operations,
Chrysler Corporation


“If engine damage otherwise covered by warranty was found to be unrelated to the engine lubricant, then the consumer’s practice with regard to oil change intervals would not be a relevant consideration, and the warranty claim would be honored.”
Fuels and Lubricants Division,
General Motors Research Laboratories

“The New Vehicle Warranty would not be void simply because an owner failed to use proper engine oils or did not perform maintenance at the
prescribed intervals. Warranty applicability is contingent upon the cause of failure.”
Service Policies and Procedures Department,
General Motors Corporation
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
Pablo does have a point though. Perhaps we should all let it go as we're at a stalemate.


I can let it go, maybe we need to here from the renegade Amsoil Salesman and see what he has too say.

To clarify, Pablo is not the renegade Amsoil salesman.

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