Skip to main content

Read our primer articles on High Mileage Oil, Synthetic Oil and Kinematic Viscosity

quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:


Market shares just seem misleading too me, you did show a graph where Mobil had like 58% market share and Amsoil had 4% market share, I am looking for what it means in dollars and cents.



Bear...........Why would you even care about that info unless you were planning on buying the company,or loaning them money. Are you an investment banker,or a venture capitalist. Thinking about an IPO? What gives?
Maybe he wants to be a rich AMSOIL Dealer like his neighbor with the huge estate?
I just wanted to throw out a scenario since I believe you worked for Ford.

Lets say I buy a 2010 Ford Mustang and decide to go with Amsoil 0W-20 for one year or 25,000 miles.

At 20,000 miles a lubricated part goes bad, I go to Ford, and since I did not follow the manufactures OCI's they deny my warranty.

I call up Amsoil, send them an oil sample, they say its fine, so they will not be paying.

Could Ford and Amsoil be fighting it out for maybe a year or a couple of years, especially since it could cost thousands of dollars to fix the car.

I got a vague answer from Gary, like the process may take a little while.

I have my doubts that Amsoil would be spending money on lawyers to fight Ford.

Gary or Pablo would just give me the Amsoil Company Line.

I just do not see something like this getting resolved quickly and I would think Ford would stall in trying to pay up.


Your scenario is certainly a possibility.

Conceptually, a lot of this comes down the M/M Warranty Act. You can Google it to read it for yourself.

Basically, an OEM is responsible for warranty as long as you follow the provisions of the warranty. Any failure that would occur during that time, while using approved/licesned products, would place the burden of proof upon the OEM to show that they were not at fault.

But if you venture outside the OEM warranty provisions, then the burden of proof falls upon you and/or the aftermarket manufuacturer. Here is where things can become mired down in time/money/etc.

If an aftermarket manufacturer makes the product to the specs of the OEM, it will be easy for the aftermarket manufacturer to prove their worth. And example would be filter or lube makers that comply with industry standards and/or seek OEM license. Fram, Wix, Purolator all design filters to meet OEM criteria; any lube related failure would be view from either a component or product angle. Did the filter fail due to a defect in manufacture? Then the filter maker would pay. Did the failure come from a design issue? Then the OEM would be at fault, because the aftermarket made a product to OEM spec.

But then you venture further outside of "normal" and get to unlicesned, non-approved products like Amsoil. They have their own testing, and very few of their products are API licensed (only the XL lubes as I recall - which few people use). They also don't seek out the OEM license. They rely on thier own testing as proof of performance. Here is where the OEM (Ford, GM, etc) can throw the burden of proof onto the aftermarket, legally.

So in your scenario, it's possible that a long drawn-out battle may ensue. Depending upon the exact type of failure, and type products used, it might place Ford into a postion where they are comfortable denying warranty until Amsoil could PROVE in court (or arbitration) that the oil (and the OCI) was not at fault.

Amsoil's own warranty is very well written. Ironically, the very M/M Act they claim to provide leverage against Ford, is the very same one they use to provide leverage against you. Ever read the whole Amsoil warranty? They have just as many "don't do this; must do that" provisions as well. Ultimately, if the Amsoil fluid is found to be at fault, and they balked (which I don't think they would) then you'd have to turn around and take legal action against them.

All this while your ride sits and depreceiates, unusable, awaiting repair. You make payments on a vehicle you cannot even use ...

On the other hand, I can see the need for limited warranties. People often think that they know "better" then the OEMs. They try to out-do the OEM by re-engineering a product that typically has thousands of man-hours and million of dollars in development. Occasionally, an OEM can get it wrong. But that is not typically the case. Plus, the OEM has mounds of cash and huge resources as proof as to why they made decisions. What would you have?

Let me give an exmample that seems extreme, but play right into the M/M Act guidelines. I'm being overtly endulgent here, making stuff up, but you'll get the point.

Say Joe Schmoe decided that he knows "better" than the OEM, and decided that since "thicker is better" when it comes to lubes, he decides to run gear oil in his engine. After all, a mass-market 90 grade GL-5 isn't that far off from a 40 grade or 50 grade engine oil. It works for a while, but eventually something fails in his engine (perhaps he's done this in a turbodiesel truck?). So out come the "experts". His Ford turbo failed. Ford takes an oil sample as wonders what is in the crankcase?
"Mobil 1 75w-90" is Joe's reply.
Ford: "Your warranty is denied."
Joe: "You can't do that; the M/M act says so." (Joe is wrong here).
Ford: "see if Mobil will cover it."
Mobil: "no way in Hades; that is an unapproved use of our fluids, and not according to OEM specs, and we have our own written warranty that you ignored, Joe".
Joe: "but oil is oil, and thicker is better!"
Ford and Mobil (together): "oh yeah? Prove it. See you in court."

Had Joe used a spec'd/licensed engine fluid, Ford would legally be in a position to prove that their own spec's were not at fault; kind of hard to do or admit when you're the one that made them. So Ford would pay. Or, if Ford felt the oil was properly spec'd, but made wrong (a bad batch of HDEO oil) then they might push the issue to Mobil, which then would review it's production data and make a decision. But when Joes uses gear oil in a place where both the OEM and aftermarket say "use this; not that" then JOE is the one with the burden of proof.

See, just because someone thinks they know better, it is COMPLETELY about burden of proof. Ford and Amsoil have all the time in the world, and both of them have more cash than you. Ultimately, one of them would likely pay because (I presume) you would use an Amsoil engine oil in the engine, so at least you followed one recommendation.

Now, I understand you're not going to use GL-5 in your engine, but the point I'm making is that M/M is about the burden of proof, and where it can be pushed. If you have a engine failure using Amsoil, the first question is "was it mechanical"? Oil will not make an engine throw a rod, but it might make a rod spin a bearing ...

And so begins the finger pointing.

I am NOT against Amsoil, or any other aftermarket product. But I always weigh my options and take a path that makes the best reward for the least cost. To me, it makes sense to use licensed/approved products during a warranty period. Past that point, the world is open to you. For example, my Duramax engine requires an OCI at least annually; I change oil once a year even though I only drive about 6k miles in the truck. I know for a fact that HDEO can go longer and further, but I'm not willing to risk a $8,000 engine to save some money. I'm not willing to over-extend my OCI without good UOA proof to back me up.

I don't think Gary or Pablo are leading you astray, but they will not be the ones in the legal battle with you (or against you). It will be corporate Ford and corporate Amsoil. Sales teams shy away from stuff when they know the lawyers might come out to play, and I cannont blame them.


It's your decision. Hope that helps.

Tim, this guy works for Ford, guess after reading this I will say no to Extended Drains with Amsoil during the Warranty Period when I get my new car.
Nice example Bear. Although you used Gear oil for your example, we could easily substitute 0W30 in an engine that calls for 5W20, with no other options. I get the point. It would be a long drawn out uphill battle.

Stick to approved fluids, and mfg recommended intervals, in the suggested grade, and don't play games while under a warranty. Sound advice, and exactly what the service writer told us when we had my GF's Jeep in for a warranty issue. He flat out said, DON'T USE A 30 GRADE OIL IN THIS JEEP! IF THERE IS AN OIL PROBLEM WE WILL PULL A SAMPLE, AND THAT 30 GRADE WILL BITE YOU IN THE BUTT! IT CALLS FOR 5W20, USE 5W20!

NUFF SAID,
AD
Do what you want. Hypothesize all you want. But you haven't proven a thing. You have yet to show a real life drawn out court battle over AMSOIL. I know of no cases where anyone had a warranty problem using extended oil changes with an AMSOIL recommended fluid for 38 years, millions of vehicles, billions of miles. The proof is in the pudding (and the oil).

And of course, if any oil fails, even while following the vehicle manufacturers guidelines, then your "scenario" would still apply. Vehicle manufacture warranties only cover defective parts, not defective oil. So it is best to pick an oil with the best warranty. Some are only for 4,000 miles/4 months and cover only 15 parts. Some oils don't seem to offer any written warranty. Your choice...
Last edited by timvipond
Quote:
Do what you want.


We all Will.

Quote:
But you haven't proven a thing.


Neither have you.

Quote:
You have yet to show a real life drawn out court battle over AMSOIL


The records are sealed.

Quote:
I know of no cases where anyone had a warranty problem using extended oil changes with an AMSOIL recommended fluid for 38 years


Your just not telling us.

Quote:
millions of vehicles


Can you prove that with DOCUMENTATION, sure sounds like a Sales Pitch.

Quote:
The proof is in the pudding (and the oil).


Amsoil sure turns into PUDDING after 17,000 miles.

Quote:
So it is best to pick an oil with the best warranty


I already read Amsoil's Warranty, and its worthless, I could care less about Pennzoil's Warranty since the oil is fine for me.

Quote:
Some oils don't seem to offer any written warranty. Your choice...


My uncle has a 1979 Pontiac with 220,000 miles that he has done yearly OCI's on the cheapest oil he can get his hands on, so he has done fine with his cheap oil that I would guess has absolutely no kind of WARRANTY.
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:

The records are sealed.

Prove it.

quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:

Amsoil sure turns into PUDDING after 17,000 miles.

Proof? Alchemy?


Your the Amsoil Salesman, you PROVE me WRONG.
Your statements. Provide the proof to back them up. I can't prove something that didn't happen.
can Amsoil ASL 5w30 really stand 25000 miles?
DSteven Offline


Registered: 04/09/04
Posts: 295
Loc: Minnesota-South Dakota
A few years ago in my area, an amsoil dealer did 25000-30000 mile oci's on his taurus. It started running badly, so he brought it in to the dealer with around 92000 miles. Apparently, the cam had been ground down. It was a 92 taurus with a 3.8L v6. From that experience, I would not really recommend running the oil that long. Maybe, if it got new filters and a fresh quart every 3-4K. It is an awesome oil, from what I hear, huh, but any oil for 25000 or 30000...maybe not such a good idea.


: can Amsoil ASL 5w30 really stand 25000 miles?
DSteven Offline


Registered: 04/09/04
Posts: 295
Loc: Minnesota-South Dakota
TomJones76-
The individual that ran that amount in his Taurus was an amsoil dealer. I talked to Frank, the mechanic that repaired that car, which he remembers well, and he said the man followed the instructions and just didn't ahve good luck. He said he was proving his oil point with his Taurus. Unfortuneately, it didn't go well. I did see a car with 202,000 on its clock that had a diet of Amsoil 10-30 since 28000 miles. The individual used Wix oil filters, changing them every 3-4K with a fresh top off quart and ran the oil 12-15K, changing the air filter every 5K. The engine was very clean and ran great! That was a good testimony to Amsoil. It is a good oil, exceptional in fact...but 25,000 miles?...maybe not such a good idea. Tom, I just couldn't recommend, in good conscience at least, driving 25000 miles on any oil. Yes, maybe it will be somewhat adequate under the most ideal conditions...but for a 25000 mile run of miles, what vehicle sees all 25000 miles as idea? I have to quench when trying to get 10000 out of Mobil-1 and changing the filter at 5K. I think of all the different temps (-30'-100'F), short trips, idle time, etc that goes on during that time...and remembering the STS's oil life indicator only went 1400 miles one cold winter before wanting an oil change. All that factored, it just makes 25000 seem very high for a recommendation. That is all. No controversy, just writing from experience.
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
Nice example Bear. Although you used Gear oil for your example, we could easily substitute 0W30 in an engine that calls for 5W20, with no other options. I get the point. It would be a long drawn out uphill battle.

Stick to approved fluids, and mfg recommended intervals, in the suggested grade, and don't play games while under a warranty. Sound advice, and exactly what the service writer told us when we had my GF's Jeep in for a warranty issue. He flat out said, DON'T USE A 30 GRADE OIL IN THIS JEEP! IF THERE IS AN OIL PROBLEM WE WILL PULL A SAMPLE, AND THAT 30 GRADE WILL BITE YOU IN THE BUTT! IT CALLS FOR 5W20, USE 5W20!

NUFF SAID,
AD



Yeh......that worked at real well for some. Play it safe,really,are you sure?

For those of you who think you are safe doing 3000 mile oil changes with receipts,think again.....

http://www.google.com/imgres?i...a:en-US%3Cimg%20src=


quote:
<<<<<Manufacturer warranties might refuse to cover oil sludge damage by blaming you, the customer, for poor maintenance habits or neglect—even if you can prove you changed the oil every 3,000 miles. Without warranty protection, engine replacements are $5,000-$10,000. SAAB, Toyota, VW, and a few other manufacturers have some limited coverage for sludge damage.>>>>>



In sum..........playing it safe as some have said,may not be.....playing it smart!

The smart move is to use group IV synthetic,don't get sludge in the first place,and you won't have to worry about warranty issues......because you probably won't have any issues to deal with.
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
Nice example Bear. Although you used Gear oil for your example, we could easily substitute 0W30 in an engine that calls for 5W20, with no other options. I get the point. It would be a long drawn out uphill battle.

Stick to approved fluids, and mfg recommended intervals, in the suggested grade, and don't play games while under a warranty. Sound advice, and exactly what the service writer told us when we had my GF's Jeep in for a warranty issue. He flat out said, DON'T USE A 30 GRADE OIL IN THIS JEEP! IF THERE IS AN OIL PROBLEM WE WILL PULL A SAMPLE, AND THAT 30 GRADE WILL BITE YOU IN THE BUTT! IT CALLS FOR 5W20, USE 5W20!

NUFF SAID,
AD



Yeh......that worked at real well for some. Play it safe,really,are you sure?

For those of you who think you are safe doing 3000 mile oil changes with receipts,think again.....

http://www.google.com/imgres?i...a:en-US%3Cimg%20src=


quote:
<<<<<Manufacturer warranties might refuse to cover oil sludge damage by blaming you, the customer, for poor maintenance habits or neglect—even if you can prove you changed the oil every 3,000 miles. Without warranty protection, engine replacements are $5,000-$10,000. SAAB, Toyota, VW, and a few other manufacturers have some limited coverage for sludge damage.>>>>>



In sum..........playing it safe as some have said,may not be.....playing it smart!

The smart move is to use group IV synthetic,don't get sludge in the first place,and you won't have to worry about warranty issues......because you probably won't have any issues to deal with.


Point well taken Kirk, but if you use a mfg approved oil, and follow the intervals you'll be fine. That is unless there is a design flaw with the engine, in which case that would be a mfg issue they'd have to make good one. Just be able to show proof you've maintained the car as they outlined, using an approved oil and filter.

Even Amsoil had sludge issues in certain vehicles and suggests you follow mfg OCI's. These were design flaws and not the fault of the oil. I don't want to get the Amsoil boys all fired up again!
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
Nice example Bear. Although you used Gear oil for your example, we could easily substitute 0W30 in an engine that calls for 5W20, with no other options. I get the point. It would be a long drawn out uphill battle.

Stick to approved fluids, and mfg recommended intervals, in the suggested grade, and don't play games while under a warranty. Sound advice, and exactly what the service writer told us when we had my GF's Jeep in for a warranty issue. He flat out said, DON'T USE A 30 GRADE OIL IN THIS JEEP! IF THERE IS AN OIL PROBLEM WE WILL PULL A SAMPLE, AND THAT 30 GRADE WILL BITE YOU IN THE BUTT! IT CALLS FOR 5W20, USE 5W20!

NUFF SAID,
AD



Yeh......that worked at real well for some. Play it safe,really,are you sure?

For those of you who think you are safe doing 3000 mile oil changes with receipts,think again.....

http://www.google.com/imgres?i...a:en-US%3Cimg%20src=


quote:
<<<<<Manufacturer warranties might refuse to cover oil sludge damage by blaming you, the customer, for poor maintenance habits or neglect—even if you can prove you changed the oil every 3,000 miles. Without warranty protection, engine replacements are $5,000-$10,000. SAAB, Toyota, VW, and a few other manufacturers have some limited coverage for sludge damage.>>>>>



In sum..........playing it safe as some have said,may not be.....playing it smart!

The smart move is to use group IV synthetic,don't get sludge in the first place,and you won't have to worry about warranty issues......because you probably won't have any issues to deal with.


Point well taken Kirk, but if you use a mfg approved oil, and follow the intervals you'll be fine. That is unless there is a design flaw with the engine, in which case that would be a mfg issue they'd have to make good one. Just be able to show proof you've maintained the car as they outlined, using an approved oil and filter.

Even Amsoil had sludge issues in certain vehicles and suggests you follow mfg OCI's. These were design flaws and not the fault of the oil. I don't want to get the Amsoil boys all fired up again!


And once again, kirk posts a link that lists sludge prone engines....... engines are such due to design flaws.

You'll notice that not only does it say nothing about Grp IV oils, but asks and answers why all cars don't suffer from it. Notice the lack of the phrase Grp IV oil.....

But notice that A: They list certain years. B: The sentence "some manufacturers more than others due to various design differences.

C: Avoid buying car models that have very unusual oil sludge problems.
Change the oil every 3,000 miles.
On any vehicle, if you can't afford synthetic oil, check your owner's manual and insist on the correct weight of quality oil.
Buy high-quality oil filters on sale and bring them to your oil change.
You can change the PCV valve yourself, or have it changed with the 30,000-mile coolant service. But remember, coolant is best changed by a technician so they can dispose of the fluid properly.
Keep receipts for all your maintenance, even self-maintenance.

In other words, don't be a stupid owner. Notice the words "the correct weight of quality oil", another strike against "synlube".

Not to mention that he used this link before, and had it ripped apart before
Last edited by trajan
Why should I trust the warranty of a company that doesn't have mfg approvals because they're too cheap/worried to test it over the mfg warranty of the ones who make the car?

Why should I even use an oil that claims to be OK for, oh say, a M54 engine, when I can use an oil that I *know* works with said engine.

And avoid any cat fights between the oil maker and the engine maker?

All ready had a troll on BITOG claim that using dino oil in said engine would work. Was so sure that it would that instead of putting his money where his mouth is, he looked for volunteers.

Just like the trolls here............

Find that A3/B3 dino oil yet Mr Trol......er Kirk? You remember? You asked a stupid, trollish question as to why I don't use it? And I had to educate you on 1998+ bimmers? Not "beamers".
Last edited by trajan
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:

For those of you who think you are safe doing 3000 mile oil changes with receipts,think again.....

http://www.google.com/imgres?i...a:en-US%3Cimg%20src=


quote:
<<<<<Manufacturer warranties might refuse to cover oil sludge damage by blaming you, the customer, for poor maintenance habits or neglect—even if you can prove you changed the oil every 3,000 miles. Without warranty protection, engine replacements are $5,000-$10,000. SAAB, Toyota, VW, and a few other manufacturers have some limited coverage for sludge damage.>>>>>



In sum..........playing it safe as some have said,may not be.....playing it smart!

The smart move is to use group IV synthetic,don't get sludge in the first place,and you won't have to worry about warranty issues......because you probably won't have any issues to deal with.



And once again, kirk posts a link that lists sludge prone engines....... engines are such due to design flaws.


But notice that A: They list certain years. B: The sentence "some manufacturers more than others due to various design differences.

C: Avoid buying car models that have very unusual oil sludge problems.
Change the oil every 3,000 miles.
On any vehicle, if you can't afford synthetic oil, check your owner's manual and insist on the correct weight of quality oil.
Buy high-quality oil filters on sale and bring them to your oil change.
You can change the PCV valve yourself, or have it changed with the 30,000-mile coolant service. But remember, coolant is best changed by a technician so they can dispose of the fluid properly.
Keep receipts for all your maintenance, even self-maintenance.

In other words, don't be a stupid owner. Notice the words "the correct weight of quality oil", another strike against "synlube".

Not to mention that he used this link before, and had it ripped apart before[/QUOTE]

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________

Ripped Apart you say? Do you have a problem with the facts,tajan?

Rip all you want,trajan...doesn't change the facts...doesn't change history...doesn't change the truth!!

Trajan must be able to see the future when he buys a car to know it won't be sludge prone.

All engines today are sludge prone,some much worse than others. It takes years to discover which cars are the sludge monsters,Trajan.

In sum,I am 'ripping' your advice apart trajan,and well deserved at that!

Let's review Trajan's Idiotic Advice!


1. Buy a car not prone to sludge = Bad advice,impossible to know the future of any make,model,unless you buy used.

2. Change oil every 3,000 miles=Bad,antiquated,expensive,wasteful,advice.

3. Change PCV valve yourself = Not all models even have one now days. You also failed to mention to only use OEM valve if changed,and never use aftermarket valve. You could void the warranty with trajans advice.

4. Don't be a stupid owner = Bad advice.Need to define what stupid owner means. Most Americans only know where the key goes to start the car,and therefore are,"stupid",at least mechanically. That will never change,only worsen.

5. Change coolant every 30,000 miles = Trajan is living in the seventies,and is clueless.

6. Use the correct weight of oil = Vague advice, as weights are generally only recommendations,not mandates as per the manual.



In sum.........what the heck is Trajan talking about..........AGAIN....


Question..........who is actually listening to Trajan..........NOT ME!
Last edited by captainkirk
quote:
Market shares just seem misleading too me, you did show a graph where Mobil had like 58% market share and Amsoil had 4% market share, I am looking for what it means in dollars and cents.


You have to remember that the "Market Share" of Synthetic Motor oil is now in 2% range that is from almost 250,000,000 Light duty vehicles less than 5 million use "synthetic oils"

From the Mobil 1 volume sales that would if true mean that Mobil 1 users only change their oil every 30 months, which is not likely, so again the BIG OIL as well as "small oil" like to misrepresent the fact, or basically lie about their sales.

While it is easy to hide the details in annual reports for ExxonMobil.

AMSOIL does not issue any public disclosure so anything goes and does not need to have any truth in it just like their trademarked slogan (basically also a lie or at a minimum a deception) "First in Synthetics"....

Since almost all "synthetic" oils sold in USA are API Group 3 based with only occasional blend in of PAO even the "synthetic term is greatly depreciated"

When high quality PAO sells for $8.00 or more per pound and Mobil 1 in store sells for under $8.00 and weights just under 2 pounds, just figure how much virgin PAO is really in it !!!

If you were a jeweler and going price for ounce of GOLD is $1,000 would you "retail" a finished ring that has net weight of 2 ouces for $1,000 ?

Only if the filling of the ring is really silver or copper, then you can do so at a profit !

Do you really think that ExxonMobil is loosing over $8.00 on every pound of PAO they produce after they put it into Mobil 1 bottle, or is it more reasonable to think that MOST of the stuff in the bottle is NOT synthetic oil at all, they just happen to call it that....

This should be rather obvious to anyone who is willing to "think" outside (or rather inside) the bottle - and oh yes the "special custom made bottle is not FREE either, it may actually cost as much as $1.00 to $1.20 to produce and "label".

SO think of what you are really paying for, and that does not even include the $45 million annual NASCAR sponsorships and "branding".

At least they no longer pay for GOLF to promote Motor Oil, they must be getting smarter in their marketing effort !!!
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:


3. Change PCV valve yourself = Not all models even have one now days. You also failed to mention to only use OEM valve if changed,and never use aftermarket valve. You could void the warranty with trajans advice.


Question..........who is actually listening to Trajan..........NOT ME!


I think Trajan gave some good advise. I only used OEM PCV valves, they never gave me problems. My dad told me aftermarket can cause oil use, they did for him, changing back to OEM easily fixed it. I'll take his word.

What I find interesting is this remark:

"You also failed to mention to only use OEM valve if changed,and never use aftermarket valve. You could void the warranty with trajans advice."

Using the wrong oil in the wrong grade, not meeting mfg specs, with the API starbusrt, for longer than the mfg suggests can too. Yet some of us seem to have missed that point.

AD

Interesting comments Miro, I like this one: Smile When you come down to it marketing is a game played with words.

"AMSOIL does not issue any public disclosure so anything goes and does not need to have any truth in it just like their trademarked slogan (basically also a lie or at a minimum a deception) "First in Synthetics"...."
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
You could void the warranty with trajans advice."

Using the wrong oil in the wrong grade, not meeting mfg specs, with the API starbusrt, for longer than the mfg suggests can too. Yet some of us seem to have missed that point.
Of course, vehicle warranty coverage only covers manufacturing defects. It is not dependent on the oil used, or how long it was used, or having the voluntary API starburst, unless that oil was proven by the manufacturer to cause failure. And that AMSOIL has never voided a vehicle manufacturers warranty in 38 years. Some of you seem to have missed that point.



quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:Interesting comments Miro, I like this one: Smile When you come down to it marketing is a game played with words.

"AMSOIL does not issue any public disclosure so anything goes and does not need to have any truth in it just like their trademarked slogan (basically also a lie or at a minimum a deception) "First in Synthetics"...."
Of course the United States Patent and Trademark Office approved AMSOIL's trademark "The First in Synthetics", when AMSOIL proved they were the first 100% synthetic oil to meet all API requirements. AMSOIL also submitted volumes of test data showing their oil was the best on the market, and the US Patent and Trademark Office asked for the other oil companies to prove AMSOIL wrong, which they didn't. And of course the trademark has been reviewed and renewed since then. And if you have any data that proves otherwise, please contact the United States Patent and Trademark Office to have them void it.

AMSOIL also has all of these additional "First in Synthetics" firsts:
The Company of Firsts
AMSOIL has a documented history of innovation and leadership.

First to develop an API-rated 100 percent synthetic motor oil.
First to introduce the concept of "extended drain intervals" with a recommended 25,000-mile/1-year drain interval.
First U.S. company to utilize the NOACK volatility test as a standard of performance excellence.
First to produce synthetic motor oils for diesel engines, racing engines, turbo and marine engines.
First to introduce synthetic oils that legitimately contribute to improving fuel efficiency.
First to manufacture synthetic gear lube for automotive use.
First to manufacture a 100:1 pre-mix synthetic 2-cycle oil.
First to manufacture a synthetic automatic transmission fluid for automotive use.
Last edited by timvipond
quote:
Originally posted by Miro Kefurt:

You have to remember that the "Market Share" of Synthetic Motor oil is now in 2% range that is from almost 250,000,000 Light duty vehicles less than 5 million use "synthetic oils"

From the Mobil 1 volume sales that would if true mean that Mobil 1 users only change their oil every 30 months, which is not likely, so again the BIG OIL as well as "small oil" like to misrepresent the fact, or basically lie about their sales.
Where did you get these numbers? The reports I've seen show a 10% synthetic oil market. And retail stores carry much more that 2% synthetic oils, more like the 10% I've seen reported.


quote:
Originally posted by Miro Kefurt:When high quality PAO sells for $8.00 or more per pound and Mobil 1 in store sells for under $8.00 and weights just under 2 pounds, just figure how much virgin PAO is really in it !!!
Where did you get this pricing? The reports I've seen show it goes for about $10 per gallon. Which would seem to reflect the chemical synthetic motor oil prices in the market.
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:


3. Change PCV valve yourself = Not all models even have one now days. You also failed to mention to only use OEM valve if changed,and never use aftermarket valve. You could void the warranty with trajans advice.


Question..........who is actually listening to Trajan..........NOT ME!


I think Trajan gave some good advise. I only used OEM PCV valves, they never gave me problems. My dad told me aftermarket can cause oil use, they did for him, changing back to OEM easily fixed it. I'll take his word.


It's just further proof, if needed, that he doesn't read his own links. It's his own link that says change the PCV valve yourself.

It's also further proof that he cherry picks his own links.

Got to love it. He posts a link, then attacks his own link........
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
quote:
Originally posted by Miro Kefurt:

You have to remember that the "Market Share" of Synthetic Motor oil is now in 2% range that is from almost 250,000,000 Light duty vehicles less than 5 million use "synthetic oils"

From the Mobil 1 volume sales that would if true mean that Mobil 1 users only change their oil every 30 months, which is not likely, so again the BIG OIL as well as "small oil" like to misrepresent the fact, or basically lie about their sales.
Where did you get these numbers? The reports I've seen show a 10% synthetic oil market. And retail stores carry much more that 2% synthetic oils, more like the 10% I've seen reported.


quote:
Originally posted by Miro Kefurt:When high quality PAO sells for $8.00 or more per pound and Mobil 1 in store sells for under $8.00 and weights just under 2 pounds, just figure how much virgin PAO is really in it !!!
Where did you get this pricing? The reports I've seen show it goes for about $10 per gallon. Which would seem to reflect the chemical synthetic motor oil prices in the market.


Same place he gets all his other claims that he has yet to back. The air.
quote:
Of course the United States Patent and Trademark Office approved AMSOIL's trademark "The First in Synthetics", when AMSOIL proved they were the first 100% synthetic oil to meet all API requirements. AMSOIL also submitted volumes of test data showing their oil was the best on the market, and the US Patent and Trademark Office asked for the other oil companies to prove AMSOIL wrong, which they didn't. And of course the trademark has been reviewed and renewed since then. And if you have any data that proves otherwise, please contact the United States Patent and Trademark Office to have them void it.


Tim, that must be public knowledge if it is at the Patent Office. Please Post it here for us to read.

quote:
Where did you get these numbers? The reports I've seen show a 10% synthetic oil market. And retail stores carry much more that 2% synthetic oils, more like the 10% I've seen reported.


Again, Please Post the reports you've seen.

quote:
Where did you get this pricing? The reports I've seen show it goes for about $10 per gallon. Which would seem to reflect the chemical synthetic motor oil prices in the market.


I think we would like to see these reports too!
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
Nice example Bear. Although you used Gear oil for your example, we could easily substitute 0W30 in an engine that calls for 5W20, with no other options. I get the point. It would be a long drawn out uphill battle.

Stick to approved fluids, and mfg recommended intervals, in the suggested grade, and don't play games while under a warranty. Sound advice, and exactly what the service writer told us when we had my GF's Jeep in for a warranty issue. He flat out said, DON'T USE A 30 GRADE OIL IN THIS JEEP! IF THERE IS AN OIL PROBLEM WE WILL PULL A SAMPLE, AND THAT 30 GRADE WILL BITE YOU IN THE BUTT! IT CALLS FOR 5W20, USE 5W20!

NUFF SAID,
AD



Yeh......that worked at real well for some. Play it safe,really,are you sure?

For those of you who think you are safe doing 3000 mile oil changes with receipts,think again.....

http://www.google.com/imgres?i...a:en-US%3Cimg%20src=


quote:
<<<<<Manufacturer warranties might refuse to cover oil sludge damage by blaming you, the customer, for poor maintenance habits or neglect—even if you can prove you changed the oil every 3,000 miles. Without warranty protection, engine replacements are $5,000-$10,000. SAAB, Toyota, VW, and a few other manufacturers have some limited coverage for sludge damage.>>>>>



In sum..........playing it safe as some have said,may not be.....playing it smart!

The smart move is to use group IV synthetic,don't get sludge in the first place,and you won't have to worry about warranty issues......because you probably won't have any issues to deal with.


Instead of trolling me over a PCV change, why don't you read your own link all the way through for once, instead of cherry picking?

look for the line "If you're on a budget" in the link *you* provided.
quote:
Originally posted by johnpr3:
quote:
Of course the United States Patent and Trademark Office approved AMSOIL's trademark "The First in Synthetics", when AMSOIL proved they were the first 100% synthetic oil to meet all API requirements. AMSOIL also submitted volumes of test data showing their oil was the best on the market, and the US Patent and Trademark Office asked for the other oil companies to prove AMSOIL wrong, which they didn't. And of course the trademark has been reviewed and renewed since then. And if you have any data that proves otherwise, please contact the United States Patent and Trademark Office to have them void it.


Tim, that must be public knowledge if it is at the Patent Office. Please Post it here for us to read.

http://tess2.uspto.gov/

Word Mark THE FIRST IN SYNTHETICS
Goods and Services IC 001. US 001 005 006 010 026 046. G & S: Chemical additives for lubricants and fuels; anti-freeze; transmission fluid. FIRST USE: 19910300. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19910300
IC 002. US 006 011 016. G & S: Rust preventatives in the nature of a coating. FIRST USE: 20031112. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20031112

IC 003. US 001 004 006 050 051 052. G & S: Automotive cleaning preparations. FIRST USE: 20040324. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20040324

IC 004. US 001 006 015. G & S: Lubricants, oils and greases for automotive, industrial and commercial use. FIRST USE: 19900400. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19900400

Standard Characters Claimed
Mark Drawing Code (4) STANDARD CHARACTER MARK
Serial Number 78803596
Filing Date January 31, 2006
Current Filing Basis 1A
Original Filing Basis 1A
Published for Opposition December 5, 2006
Registration Number 3210848
Registration Date February 20, 2007
Owner (REGISTRANT) AMSOIL INC. CORPORATION DELAWARE AMSOIL BUILDING Superior WISCONSIN 54880
Attorney of Record Christopher J. Schulte
Prior Registrations 2033283
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register PRINCIPAL-2(F)
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE


Typed Drawing

Word Mark THE FIRST IN SYNTHETICS
Goods and Services IC 004. US 001 006 015. G & S: synthetic lubricating oil; synthetic gear lube; para-synthetic lubricating oil; synthetic turbo lubricating oil; and synthetic automatic transmission fluid. FIRST USE: 19900700. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19900700
Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING
Serial Number 74562272
Filing Date August 17, 1994
Current Filing Basis 1A
Original Filing Basis 1A
Published for Opposition October 22, 1996
Registration Number 2033283
Registration Date January 28, 1997
Owner (REGISTRANT) Amsoil, Inc. CORPORATION DELAWARE Amsoil Bldg. Superior WISCONSIN 54880
Attorney of Record Christopher J. Schulte
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register PRINCIPAL-2(F)
Affidavit Text SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR). SECTION 8(10-YR) 20060713.
Renewal 1ST RENEWAL 20060713
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE
quote:
Originally posted by johnpr3:

quote:
Where did you get these numbers? The reports I've seen show a 10% synthetic oil market. And retail stores carry much more that 2% synthetic oils, more like the 10% I've seen reported.


Again, Please Post the reports you've seen.


http://www.amsoil.com/news/200..._fastlube_market.pdf

"According to the 2009 National Oil & Lube News Fast Lube
Operators Survey, the vast majority of both smaller LT30
(companies operating “less than 30 stores”) and larger MT30
(companies operating “more than 30 stores”) fast lube busi-
nesses offer premium oil changes using synthetic motor oil.
In fact, 92 percent of LT30 businesses and 100 percent of
MT30 businesses offer a synthetic motor oil change, with
synthetics accounting for 10 percent of sales at both MT30
and LT30 businesses."

http://www.businesswire.com/po...22005302&newsLang=en

"Only 11 percent of survey participants are using synthetic motor oil in their engine."
quote:
quote:
Where did you get these numbers? The reports I've seen show a 10% synthetic oil market. And retail stores carry much more that 2% synthetic oils, more like the 10% I've seen reported.



Again, Please Post the reports you've seen.

quote:
Where did you get this pricing? The reports I've seen show it goes for about $10 per gallon. Which would seem to reflect the chemical synthetic motor oil prices in the market.



I think we would like to see these reports too!



You going to show us the numbers Tim, I also looked at Amsoil's numbers on the ASTM D-5293 test and they did not look that good.

I also looked at the 40 Degree Celcius Numbers and I was not impressed.

You seem to like to knock Pennzoil but they did show numbers for the D-4684 test, Castrol Edge also showed numbers for this test, Amsoil does not have any numbers for this test meaning they do not show it on there site.

I have a feeling that since Amsoil is super thick they probably knew they would do terrible with the D-4684 test.

How come Amsoil 0W-20 is thicker than Amsoil 5W-20 XL, that Amsoil 0W-20 is almost a 0W-30 and some would argue that it is almost a 5W-20

Your Amsoil 0W-30 is thicker than Castrol Edge's 5W-30 and its very close to Pennzoil Platinums numbers for there 5W-30 motor oil.

Why is the 5W-30 XL thinner than the 5W-30 100% synthetic oil that Amsoil sells.

The Viscosity Indexes on your oil's looks pathetic, no wonder your oil's thicken up overtime.

Amsoil Motor Oil is just too THICK, especially for the NORTHERN folks during the wintertime.
quote:
Again, Please Post the reports you've seen.



http://www.amsoil.com/news/200..._fastlube_market.pdf

"According to the 2009 National Oil & Lube News Fast Lube
Operators Survey, the vast majority of both smaller LT30
(companies operating “less than 30 stores”) and larger MT30
(companies operating “more than 30 stores”) fast lube busi-
nesses offer premium oil changes using synthetic motor oil.
In fact, 92 percent of LT30 businesses and 100 percent of
MT30 businesses offer a synthetic motor oil change, with
synthetics accounting for 10 percent of sales at both MT30
and LT30 businesses."



Tim, do you have any data besides some pathetic stuff you have posted before, we don't need any Fast Lube junk, real numbers, real sales figures.
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
quote:
Originally posted by johnpr3:
quote:
Of course the United States Patent and Trademark Office approved AMSOIL's trademark "The First in Synthetics", when AMSOIL proved they were the first 100% synthetic oil to meet all API requirements. AMSOIL also submitted volumes of test data showing their oil was the best on the market, and the US Patent and Trademark Office asked for the other oil companies to prove AMSOIL wrong, which they didn't. And of course the trademark has been reviewed and renewed since then. And if you have any data that proves otherwise, please contact the United States Patent and Trademark Office to have them void it.


Tim, that must be public knowledge if it is at the Patent Office. Please Post it here for us to read.

http://tess2.uspto.gov/

Word Mark THE FIRST IN SYNTHETICS
Goods and Services IC 001. US 001 005 006 010 026 046. G & S: Chemical additives for lubricants and fuels; anti-freeze; transmission fluid. FIRST USE: 19910300. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19910300
IC 002. US 006 011 016. G & S: Rust preventatives in the nature of a coating. FIRST USE: 20031112. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20031112

IC 003. US 001 004 006 050 051 052. G & S: Automotive cleaning preparations. FIRST USE: 20040324. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20040324

IC 004. US 001 006 015. G & S: Lubricants, oils and greases for automotive, industrial and commercial use. FIRST USE: 19900400. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19900400

Standard Characters Claimed
Mark Drawing Code (4) STANDARD CHARACTER MARK
Serial Number 78803596
Filing Date January 31, 2006
Current Filing Basis 1A
Original Filing Basis 1A
Published for Opposition December 5, 2006
Registration Number 3210848
Registration Date February 20, 2007
Owner (REGISTRANT) AMSOIL INC. CORPORATION DELAWARE AMSOIL BUILDING Superior WISCONSIN 54880
Attorney of Record Christopher J. Schulte
Prior Registrations 2033283
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register PRINCIPAL-2(F)
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE


Typed Drawing

Word Mark THE FIRST IN SYNTHETICS
Goods and Services IC 004. US 001 006 015. G & S: synthetic lubricating oil; synthetic gear lube; para-synthetic lubricating oil; synthetic turbo lubricating oil; and synthetic automatic transmission fluid. FIRST USE: 19900700. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19900700
Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING
Serial Number 74562272
Filing Date August 17, 1994
Current Filing Basis 1A
Original Filing Basis 1A
Published for Opposition October 22, 1996
Registration Number 2033283
Registration Date January 28, 1997
Owner (REGISTRANT) Amsoil, Inc. CORPORATION DELAWARE Amsoil Bldg. Superior WISCONSIN 54880
Attorney of Record Christopher J. Schulte
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register PRINCIPAL-2(F)
Affidavit Text SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR). SECTION 8(10-YR) 20060713.
Renewal 1ST RENEWAL 20060713
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE


Tim, AMSOIL just patented some words. That doesn't mean anything other than that. Just a slogan.
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
quote:
Originally posted by johnpr3:

quote:
Where did you get these numbers? The reports I've seen show a 10% synthetic oil market. And retail stores carry much more that 2% synthetic oils, more like the 10% I've seen reported.


Tim, this is based on an unscientific survey. Please provide real, hard numbers for us to evaluate.

Again, Please Post the reports you've seen.


http://www.amsoil.com/news/200..._fastlube_market.pdf

"According to the 2009 National Oil & Lube News Fast Lube
Operators Survey, the vast majority of both smaller LT30
(companies operating “less than 30 stores”) and larger MT30
(companies operating “more than 30 stores”) fast lube busi-
nesses offer premium oil changes using synthetic motor oil.
In fact, 92 percent of LT30 businesses and 100 percent of
MT30 businesses offer a synthetic motor oil change, with
synthetics accounting for 10 percent of sales at both MT30
and LT30 businesses."

http://www.businesswire.com/po...22005302&newsLang=en

"Only 11 percent of survey participants are using synthetic motor oil in their engine."
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:

Question..........who is actually listening to Trajan..........NOT ME!


ADF1 SAID........
I think Trajan gave some good advise.

----------------------------------------

Really,tell us what the good advice was since I was the one who said to use only an OEM PCV valve. So,in reality,you(ADF1) unwittingly backed what I said.

Tell us what other advice he(trajan) gave that isn't already something you(ADF1) knew already?



I will continue with my PCV valve rant!


Using the wrong(aftermarket) PCV valve should not cause your car to use more oil unless you are using motor oil that is highly volatile in which case it will burn off anyway.

Using an after market PCV valve is a bad idea because the valve spring in after market valves is not typically calibrated as precise as the OEM valve allowing for improper metering of the valve,and improper venting of the crankcase gases. This will either cause too much venting,or not enough, causing condensation issues, sludge issues ,and idling issues. Way too much venting might cause loss of oil.

fficial&channel=s&&sa=X&ei=cXsiTKKHHsL78Aap0qzeBQ&ved=0CE0QBSgA&q=aftermarket+pcv+valve+vs+oem&spell=1" target="_blank">http://www.google.com/search?h...valve+vs+oem&spell=1



Let's review Trajan's Idiotic Advice! AGAIN................


1. Buy a car not prone to sludge = Bad advice,impossible to know the future of any make,model,unless you buy used.

2. Change oil every 3,000 miles=Bad,antiquated,expensive,wasteful,advice.

3. Change PCV valve yourself = Not all models even have one now days. You also failed to mention to only use OEM valve if changed,and never use aftermarket valve. You could void the warranty with trajans advice.

4. Don't be a stupid owner = Bad advice.Need to define what stupid owner means. Most Americans only know where the key goes to start the car,and therefore are,"stupid",at least mechanically. That will never change,only worsen.

5. Change coolant every 30,000 miles = Trajan is living in the seventies,and is clueless.

6. Use the correct weight of oil = Vague advice, as weights are generally only recommendations,not mandates as per the manual.



TRAJAN QUOTE........"You can change the PCV valve yourself, or have it changed with the 30,000-mile coolant service. But remember, coolant is best changed by a technician so they can dispose of the fluid properly."

As you can see........Trajan is the one saying to change PCV........yourself.



In sum.........what the heck is Trajan talking about..........AGAIN....


Question..........who is actually listening to Trajan..........NOT ME!
Last edited by captainkirk
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
quote:
Tim, AMSOIL just patented some words. That doesn't mean anything other than that. Just a slogan.


I call it plain old MARKETING, Amsoil and there PUSHY Dealers will say anything to sell there product, will they ever learn before its too late, probably not.



TOO LATE BIG BEAR,TOO LATE FOR WHAT.......

....PLEASE TELL US........IS THERE A STORM COMING...........
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Miro Kefurt:


When high quality PAO sells for $8.00 or more per pound and Mobil 1 in store sells for under $8.00 and weights just under 2 pounds, just figure how much virgin PAO is really in it !!!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The other issue besides cost I would think is group I-III oil is a byproduct of the refining process to make fuel,and now what to do with all that lube oil. It would be similar to how big industry gets rid of another industrial by- product..........FLUORIDE.

We are all using/burning some type of fuel that comes from crude oil,and the byproduct of all that refining of crude oil,would be mineral/lube oil as a byproduct.

Big oil is always going to push mineral oil vs synthetic,otherwise how would all that product(mineral oil)get used up.

http://www.elmhurst.edu/~chm/o...utlines/distill.html


Look how much mineral/lube oil is in this graph.

I would think that part of the graph(lube oil) is reserved for all the naysayers in this group against synthetic oil.
They are the ones doing all those 3000 mile oil changes who drink all the mineral oil........Kool-Aid!!

I would think that big oil is totally against using 100% synthetic with extended oil changes,so big oil will always market 3000 mile changes using mineral oil,for more profit, and to "Get Rid" of the lube oil. Only suckers buy into that philosophy,not me!


I also think that automotive diesel technology has not really caught on(politically)in this country vs Europe for the same set of reasons. If more cars got 50 MPG using diesel..........what would big oil do with all that extra........gasoline. What would happen to the price of gasoline,and big oil profits!! It's all about supply and demand,and of course......BIG PROFIT.
Last edited by captainkirk
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:

You going to show us the numbers Tim, I also looked at Amsoil's numbers on the ASTM D-5293 test and they did not look that good.
Which numbers? Please provide the link.

quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:I also looked at the 40 Degree Celcius Numbers and I was not impressed.
Which numbers. Please provide the link. What did not impress you?

quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:You seem to like to knock Pennzoil but they did show numbers for the D-4684 test, Castrol Edge also showed numbers for this test, Amsoil does not have any numbers for this test meaning they do not show it on there site.
I have never knocked Pennzoil. They clearly do not have the best oil as shown with their 4,000 mile/4 month warranty. In fact, Pennzoil is leaving Australia and other countries as well. I guess it did not do well in the more competitive world markets.

quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:I have a feeling that since Amsoil is super thick they probably knew they would do terrible with the D-4684 test.
AMSOIL is not super thick. It meets the standards for viscosity. Please post the link where it is super thick.

quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:How come Amsoil 0W-20 is thicker than Amsoil 5W-20 XL, that Amsoil 0W-20 is almost a 0W-30 and some would argue that it is almost a 5W-20
They all meet the SAE viscosity grade. AMSOIL 0w20 is thinner at the lowest temperatures. They all offer longer warranted oil change intervals. Nothing wrong with that.

quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:Your Amsoil 0W-30 is thicker than Castrol Edge's 5W-30 and its very close to Pennzoil Platinums numbers for there 5W-30 motor oil.
Not at the lowest temperatures.

quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:Why is the 5W-30 XL thinner than the 5W-30 100% synthetic oil that Amsoil sells.
Different base oils, different additives. All meet SAE viscosity.

quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:The Viscosity Indexes on your oil's looks pathetic, no wonder your oil's thicken up overtime.
The Viscosity Indexes all meet the Viscosity Index requirements. Please show a direct correlation between Viscosity Index and thickening. When has AMSOIL thickened when there wasn't high dirt, or water, or coolant present? Please show.

quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:Amsoil Motor Oil is just too THICK, especially for the NORTHERN folks during the wintertime.
No it isn't. Look at the Pour Point and Cold Cranking numbers. None better. Pick the 0w-XX and all will be well. AMSOIL is VERY popular in cold climates.

Show me where AMSOIL has ever failed to perform as advertised. No one else has.
quote:
Originally posted by johnpr3:
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
quote:
Originally posted by johnpr3:

quote:
Where did you get these numbers? The reports I've seen show a 10% synthetic oil market. And retail stores carry much more that 2% synthetic oils, more like the 10% I've seen reported.


Tim, this is based on an unscientific survey. Please provide real, hard numbers for us to evaluate.

Again, Please Post the reports you've seen.


http://www.amsoil.com/news/200..._fastlube_market.pdf

"According to the 2009 National Oil & Lube News Fast Lube
Operators Survey, the vast majority of both smaller LT30
(companies operating “less than 30 stores”) and larger MT30
(companies operating “more than 30 stores”) fast lube busi-
nesses offer premium oil changes using synthetic motor oil.
In fact, 92 percent of LT30 businesses and 100 percent of
MT30 businesses offer a synthetic motor oil change, with
synthetics accounting for 10 percent of sales at both MT30
and LT30 businesses."

http://www.businesswire.com/po...22005302&newsLang=en

"Only 11 percent of survey participants are using synthetic motor oil in their engine."


What makes you think the numbers are unscientific? They were done by Exxon and National Oil & Lube. Two different sources. Total agreement.
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
quote:
Tim, AMSOIL just patented some words. That doesn't mean anything other than that. Just a slogan.


I call it plain old MARKETING, Amsoil and there PUSHY Dealers will say anything to sell there product, will they ever learn before its too late, probably not.

But AMSOIL had to prove it to the United States Patent and Trademark Office. And none of the oil companies refuted it then or today.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:Amsoil Motor Oil is just too THICK, especially for the NORTHERN folks during the wintertime.

No it isn't. Look at the Pour Point and Cold Cranking numbers. None better. Pick the 0w-XX and all will be well. AMSOIL is VERY popular in cold climates.

Show me where AMSOIL has ever failed to perform as advertised. No one else has.


Sorry, Tim, but I have seen the Cold Cranking Numbers and they do not look as good as my next oil that I will be using in the wintertime.

Pour Point does not mean anything to me, what means something is the D-4684 test that Amsoil has failed to take part in, without that test I cannot even think of buying Amsoil Motor Oil, its a better test than the ASTM D-5293

Sorry Tim, but in this debate the customer is always right, tell your boss, I think his name is Big Al, that we all want to see Amsoil do an ASTM D-4684 Test, and we are not going to buy that Amsoil thinks its a worthless test, if Amsoil wants are money then they know what they need too do.

Show us the DATA that any of what we are saying is wrong, I have all of the numbers on just about all of the motor oil's and Amsoil is coming up thick and short.
quote:
Originally posted by johnpr3:

"Only 11 percent of survey participants are using synthetic motor oil in their engine."
[/QUOTE]
------------------------------------------


I guess that would mean the other 89% percent are, "out of the loop" in the meantime. Too bad for them,but very good for big oil and all those profits.

Now we know why all those engines sludged up and all the subsequent lawsuits...........everyone(90%+) went to iffy lube and got the cheap bulk oil that is prone to sludge.

Some people(TRAJAN) think(say) that certain engines are prone to sludge,and/or are defective, when in reality,it's certain oils are prone to sludge and or defective.

That 11% percent really shows how clueless the public is. The very same public that just voted for Al Greene in SC.(lol)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...in-gre_n_613453.html

fficial&channel=s&prmd=n&source=univ&tbs=nws:1&tbo=u&ei=w5IiTLepNsK78gayr4W7BQ&sa=X&oi=news_group&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CCAQsQQwAA" target="_blank">http://www.google.com/search?q...um=1&ved=0CCAQsQQwAA
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:Amsoil Motor Oil is just too THICK, especially for the NORTHERN folks during the wintertime.

No it isn't. Look at the Pour Point and Cold Cranking numbers. None better. Pick the 0w-XX and all will be well. AMSOIL is VERY popular in cold climates.

Show me where AMSOIL has ever failed to perform as advertised. No one else has.


Sorry, Tim, but I have seen the Cold Cranking Numbers and they do not look as good as my next oil that I will be using in the wintertime.

Pour Point does not mean anything to me, what means something is the D-4684 test that Amsoil has failed to take part in, without that test I cannot even think of buying Amsoil Motor Oil, its a better test than the ASTM D-5293

Sorry Tim, but in this debate the customer is always right, tell your boss, I think his name is Big Al, that we all want to see Amsoil do an ASTM D-4684 Test, and we are not going to buy that Amsoil thinks its a worthless test, if Amsoil wants are money then they know what they need too do.

Show us the DATA that any of what we are saying is wrong, I have all of the numbers on just about all of the motor oil's and Amsoil is coming up thick and short.



Big Bear..........."Try wrapping your head around this one"
------------------------------------------------

Car talk quote

Unless they changed the rating procedure, the first number describes how the oil will behave (pour point & flow characteristics) at 0 degrees C. Meaning a 0W-20 will behave like a 0 weight oil at 0C, and a 5W-20 will behave like a 5W oil at 0C. That's all the first number is indicating.

0w is xxx cps @ -35F 5w is xxx cPs @ -30F - the limits of stress under the CCS (Cold Crank Simulator) are the same.
MRV rating is more indicative of the differences. Some people think that all 5w's are the same at sensible flows ..as though they get some "free ride" up to operating temperature. A heavier fluid is ALWAYS a heavier fluid. This just means it's pumpable and not spinning around in a gelatinous mass.

Here's Pennzoil's hybrid 0w-20 CCS/MRV spec's

MRV viscosity, cP (°C) ASTD D-4684 16,800 (-40)
CCS Viscosity, cP (°C ) ASTM D-5293 5,600 (-35)

Penzoil's Ultra 5w-20
MRV viscosity, cP(°C)ASTD D-4684 11,700 (-35)
CCS Viscosity, cP(°C)ASTM D-5293 4,250 (-35)

Here's Mobil's M1 0w-40 @ -40C (MRV only)
MRV at -40ºC 26242 cP

In other words, just because you see a 0w doesn't mean that it's not a heavier fluid at that temp in any rational sense. A 0w-20 could indeed be a heavier fluid than a comparative 5w-20 at any temp yet have the CCS and MRV spec's that the 5w-20 cannot meet. That's the case with Mobil's M1 0w-30 vs. 5w-30

It's an extremely hard concept to wrap around if you aren't some physics major. I'm not one. We're used to dealing with (what's called) Newtonian fluids. When those fluids are described in their non-Newtonian terms, it's not easy to understand.



Bear...........so why not use the 10W-30 in this case vs the 5w-20. The 5w-20 offers very little practical cold weather benefit if any. AT 35 below in Canada,any normal engine is plug in and heated.

http://www.pennzoil.com/docume...yntheticMotorOil.pdf
Last edited by captainkirk

Add Reply

Post
×
×
×
×
Link copied to your clipboard.
×