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Read our primer articles on High Mileage Oil, Synthetic Oil and Kinematic Viscosity

quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:

The records are sealed.

Prove it.

quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:

Amsoil sure turns into PUDDING after 17,000 miles.

Proof? Alchemy?


Your the Amsoil Salesman, you PROVE me WRONG.
Your statements. Provide the proof to back them up. I can't prove something that didn't happen.
can Amsoil ASL 5w30 really stand 25000 miles?
DSteven Offline


Registered: 04/09/04
Posts: 295
Loc: Minnesota-South Dakota
A few years ago in my area, an amsoil dealer did 25000-30000 mile oci's on his taurus. It started running badly, so he brought it in to the dealer with around 92000 miles. Apparently, the cam had been ground down. It was a 92 taurus with a 3.8L v6. From that experience, I would not really recommend running the oil that long. Maybe, if it got new filters and a fresh quart every 3-4K. It is an awesome oil, from what I hear, huh, but any oil for 25000 or 30000...maybe not such a good idea.


: can Amsoil ASL 5w30 really stand 25000 miles?
DSteven Offline


Registered: 04/09/04
Posts: 295
Loc: Minnesota-South Dakota
TomJones76-
The individual that ran that amount in his Taurus was an amsoil dealer. I talked to Frank, the mechanic that repaired that car, which he remembers well, and he said the man followed the instructions and just didn't ahve good luck. He said he was proving his oil point with his Taurus. Unfortuneately, it didn't go well. I did see a car with 202,000 on its clock that had a diet of Amsoil 10-30 since 28000 miles. The individual used Wix oil filters, changing them every 3-4K with a fresh top off quart and ran the oil 12-15K, changing the air filter every 5K. The engine was very clean and ran great! That was a good testimony to Amsoil. It is a good oil, exceptional in fact...but 25,000 miles?...maybe not such a good idea. Tom, I just couldn't recommend, in good conscience at least, driving 25000 miles on any oil. Yes, maybe it will be somewhat adequate under the most ideal conditions...but for a 25000 mile run of miles, what vehicle sees all 25000 miles as idea? I have to quench when trying to get 10000 out of Mobil-1 and changing the filter at 5K. I think of all the different temps (-30'-100'F), short trips, idle time, etc that goes on during that time...and remembering the STS's oil life indicator only went 1400 miles one cold winter before wanting an oil change. All that factored, it just makes 25000 seem very high for a recommendation. That is all. No controversy, just writing from experience.
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
Nice example Bear. Although you used Gear oil for your example, we could easily substitute 0W30 in an engine that calls for 5W20, with no other options. I get the point. It would be a long drawn out uphill battle.

Stick to approved fluids, and mfg recommended intervals, in the suggested grade, and don't play games while under a warranty. Sound advice, and exactly what the service writer told us when we had my GF's Jeep in for a warranty issue. He flat out said, DON'T USE A 30 GRADE OIL IN THIS JEEP! IF THERE IS AN OIL PROBLEM WE WILL PULL A SAMPLE, AND THAT 30 GRADE WILL BITE YOU IN THE BUTT! IT CALLS FOR 5W20, USE 5W20!

NUFF SAID,
AD



Yeh......that worked at real well for some. Play it safe,really,are you sure?

For those of you who think you are safe doing 3000 mile oil changes with receipts,think again.....

http://www.google.com/imgres?i...a:en-US%3Cimg%20src=


quote:
<<<<<Manufacturer warranties might refuse to cover oil sludge damage by blaming you, the customer, for poor maintenance habits or neglect—even if you can prove you changed the oil every 3,000 miles. Without warranty protection, engine replacements are $5,000-$10,000. SAAB, Toyota, VW, and a few other manufacturers have some limited coverage for sludge damage.>>>>>



In sum..........playing it safe as some have said,may not be.....playing it smart!

The smart move is to use group IV synthetic,don't get sludge in the first place,and you won't have to worry about warranty issues......because you probably won't have any issues to deal with.
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
Nice example Bear. Although you used Gear oil for your example, we could easily substitute 0W30 in an engine that calls for 5W20, with no other options. I get the point. It would be a long drawn out uphill battle.

Stick to approved fluids, and mfg recommended intervals, in the suggested grade, and don't play games while under a warranty. Sound advice, and exactly what the service writer told us when we had my GF's Jeep in for a warranty issue. He flat out said, DON'T USE A 30 GRADE OIL IN THIS JEEP! IF THERE IS AN OIL PROBLEM WE WILL PULL A SAMPLE, AND THAT 30 GRADE WILL BITE YOU IN THE BUTT! IT CALLS FOR 5W20, USE 5W20!

NUFF SAID,
AD



Yeh......that worked at real well for some. Play it safe,really,are you sure?

For those of you who think you are safe doing 3000 mile oil changes with receipts,think again.....

http://www.google.com/imgres?i...a:en-US%3Cimg%20src=


quote:
<<<<<Manufacturer warranties might refuse to cover oil sludge damage by blaming you, the customer, for poor maintenance habits or neglect—even if you can prove you changed the oil every 3,000 miles. Without warranty protection, engine replacements are $5,000-$10,000. SAAB, Toyota, VW, and a few other manufacturers have some limited coverage for sludge damage.>>>>>



In sum..........playing it safe as some have said,may not be.....playing it smart!

The smart move is to use group IV synthetic,don't get sludge in the first place,and you won't have to worry about warranty issues......because you probably won't have any issues to deal with.


Point well taken Kirk, but if you use a mfg approved oil, and follow the intervals you'll be fine. That is unless there is a design flaw with the engine, in which case that would be a mfg issue they'd have to make good one. Just be able to show proof you've maintained the car as they outlined, using an approved oil and filter.

Even Amsoil had sludge issues in certain vehicles and suggests you follow mfg OCI's. These were design flaws and not the fault of the oil. I don't want to get the Amsoil boys all fired up again!
quote:
Originally posted by Miro Kefurt:

You have to remember that the "Market Share" of Synthetic Motor oil is now in 2% range that is from almost 250,000,000 Light duty vehicles less than 5 million use "synthetic oils"

From the Mobil 1 volume sales that would if true mean that Mobil 1 users only change their oil every 30 months, which is not likely, so again the BIG OIL as well as "small oil" like to misrepresent the fact, or basically lie about their sales.
Where did you get these numbers? The reports I've seen show a 10% synthetic oil market. And retail stores carry much more that 2% synthetic oils, more like the 10% I've seen reported.


quote:
Originally posted by Miro Kefurt:When high quality PAO sells for $8.00 or more per pound and Mobil 1 in store sells for under $8.00 and weights just under 2 pounds, just figure how much virgin PAO is really in it !!!
Where did you get this pricing? The reports I've seen show it goes for about $10 per gallon. Which would seem to reflect the chemical synthetic motor oil prices in the market.
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:


3. Change PCV valve yourself = Not all models even have one now days. You also failed to mention to only use OEM valve if changed,and never use aftermarket valve. You could void the warranty with trajans advice.


Question..........who is actually listening to Trajan..........NOT ME!


I think Trajan gave some good advise. I only used OEM PCV valves, they never gave me problems. My dad told me aftermarket can cause oil use, they did for him, changing back to OEM easily fixed it. I'll take his word.


It's just further proof, if needed, that he doesn't read his own links. It's his own link that says change the PCV valve yourself.

It's also further proof that he cherry picks his own links.

Got to love it. He posts a link, then attacks his own link........
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
quote:
Originally posted by Miro Kefurt:

You have to remember that the "Market Share" of Synthetic Motor oil is now in 2% range that is from almost 250,000,000 Light duty vehicles less than 5 million use "synthetic oils"

From the Mobil 1 volume sales that would if true mean that Mobil 1 users only change their oil every 30 months, which is not likely, so again the BIG OIL as well as "small oil" like to misrepresent the fact, or basically lie about their sales.
Where did you get these numbers? The reports I've seen show a 10% synthetic oil market. And retail stores carry much more that 2% synthetic oils, more like the 10% I've seen reported.


quote:
Originally posted by Miro Kefurt:When high quality PAO sells for $8.00 or more per pound and Mobil 1 in store sells for under $8.00 and weights just under 2 pounds, just figure how much virgin PAO is really in it !!!
Where did you get this pricing? The reports I've seen show it goes for about $10 per gallon. Which would seem to reflect the chemical synthetic motor oil prices in the market.


Same place he gets all his other claims that he has yet to back. The air.
quote:
Of course the United States Patent and Trademark Office approved AMSOIL's trademark "The First in Synthetics", when AMSOIL proved they were the first 100% synthetic oil to meet all API requirements. AMSOIL also submitted volumes of test data showing their oil was the best on the market, and the US Patent and Trademark Office asked for the other oil companies to prove AMSOIL wrong, which they didn't. And of course the trademark has been reviewed and renewed since then. And if you have any data that proves otherwise, please contact the United States Patent and Trademark Office to have them void it.


Tim, that must be public knowledge if it is at the Patent Office. Please Post it here for us to read.

quote:
Where did you get these numbers? The reports I've seen show a 10% synthetic oil market. And retail stores carry much more that 2% synthetic oils, more like the 10% I've seen reported.


Again, Please Post the reports you've seen.

quote:
Where did you get this pricing? The reports I've seen show it goes for about $10 per gallon. Which would seem to reflect the chemical synthetic motor oil prices in the market.


I think we would like to see these reports too!
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
Nice example Bear. Although you used Gear oil for your example, we could easily substitute 0W30 in an engine that calls for 5W20, with no other options. I get the point. It would be a long drawn out uphill battle.

Stick to approved fluids, and mfg recommended intervals, in the suggested grade, and don't play games while under a warranty. Sound advice, and exactly what the service writer told us when we had my GF's Jeep in for a warranty issue. He flat out said, DON'T USE A 30 GRADE OIL IN THIS JEEP! IF THERE IS AN OIL PROBLEM WE WILL PULL A SAMPLE, AND THAT 30 GRADE WILL BITE YOU IN THE BUTT! IT CALLS FOR 5W20, USE 5W20!

NUFF SAID,
AD



Yeh......that worked at real well for some. Play it safe,really,are you sure?

For those of you who think you are safe doing 3000 mile oil changes with receipts,think again.....

http://www.google.com/imgres?i...a:en-US%3Cimg%20src=


quote:
<<<<<Manufacturer warranties might refuse to cover oil sludge damage by blaming you, the customer, for poor maintenance habits or neglect—even if you can prove you changed the oil every 3,000 miles. Without warranty protection, engine replacements are $5,000-$10,000. SAAB, Toyota, VW, and a few other manufacturers have some limited coverage for sludge damage.>>>>>



In sum..........playing it safe as some have said,may not be.....playing it smart!

The smart move is to use group IV synthetic,don't get sludge in the first place,and you won't have to worry about warranty issues......because you probably won't have any issues to deal with.


Instead of trolling me over a PCV change, why don't you read your own link all the way through for once, instead of cherry picking?

look for the line "If you're on a budget" in the link *you* provided.
quote:
Originally posted by johnpr3:
quote:
Of course the United States Patent and Trademark Office approved AMSOIL's trademark "The First in Synthetics", when AMSOIL proved they were the first 100% synthetic oil to meet all API requirements. AMSOIL also submitted volumes of test data showing their oil was the best on the market, and the US Patent and Trademark Office asked for the other oil companies to prove AMSOIL wrong, which they didn't. And of course the trademark has been reviewed and renewed since then. And if you have any data that proves otherwise, please contact the United States Patent and Trademark Office to have them void it.


Tim, that must be public knowledge if it is at the Patent Office. Please Post it here for us to read.

http://tess2.uspto.gov/

Word Mark THE FIRST IN SYNTHETICS
Goods and Services IC 001. US 001 005 006 010 026 046. G & S: Chemical additives for lubricants and fuels; anti-freeze; transmission fluid. FIRST USE: 19910300. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19910300
IC 002. US 006 011 016. G & S: Rust preventatives in the nature of a coating. FIRST USE: 20031112. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20031112

IC 003. US 001 004 006 050 051 052. G & S: Automotive cleaning preparations. FIRST USE: 20040324. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20040324

IC 004. US 001 006 015. G & S: Lubricants, oils and greases for automotive, industrial and commercial use. FIRST USE: 19900400. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19900400

Standard Characters Claimed
Mark Drawing Code (4) STANDARD CHARACTER MARK
Serial Number 78803596
Filing Date January 31, 2006
Current Filing Basis 1A
Original Filing Basis 1A
Published for Opposition December 5, 2006
Registration Number 3210848
Registration Date February 20, 2007
Owner (REGISTRANT) AMSOIL INC. CORPORATION DELAWARE AMSOIL BUILDING Superior WISCONSIN 54880
Attorney of Record Christopher J. Schulte
Prior Registrations 2033283
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register PRINCIPAL-2(F)
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE


Typed Drawing

Word Mark THE FIRST IN SYNTHETICS
Goods and Services IC 004. US 001 006 015. G & S: synthetic lubricating oil; synthetic gear lube; para-synthetic lubricating oil; synthetic turbo lubricating oil; and synthetic automatic transmission fluid. FIRST USE: 19900700. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19900700
Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING
Serial Number 74562272
Filing Date August 17, 1994
Current Filing Basis 1A
Original Filing Basis 1A
Published for Opposition October 22, 1996
Registration Number 2033283
Registration Date January 28, 1997
Owner (REGISTRANT) Amsoil, Inc. CORPORATION DELAWARE Amsoil Bldg. Superior WISCONSIN 54880
Attorney of Record Christopher J. Schulte
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register PRINCIPAL-2(F)
Affidavit Text SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR). SECTION 8(10-YR) 20060713.
Renewal 1ST RENEWAL 20060713
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE
quote:
quote:
Where did you get these numbers? The reports I've seen show a 10% synthetic oil market. And retail stores carry much more that 2% synthetic oils, more like the 10% I've seen reported.



Again, Please Post the reports you've seen.

quote:
Where did you get this pricing? The reports I've seen show it goes for about $10 per gallon. Which would seem to reflect the chemical synthetic motor oil prices in the market.



I think we would like to see these reports too!



You going to show us the numbers Tim, I also looked at Amsoil's numbers on the ASTM D-5293 test and they did not look that good.

I also looked at the 40 Degree Celcius Numbers and I was not impressed.

You seem to like to knock Pennzoil but they did show numbers for the D-4684 test, Castrol Edge also showed numbers for this test, Amsoil does not have any numbers for this test meaning they do not show it on there site.

I have a feeling that since Amsoil is super thick they probably knew they would do terrible with the D-4684 test.

How come Amsoil 0W-20 is thicker than Amsoil 5W-20 XL, that Amsoil 0W-20 is almost a 0W-30 and some would argue that it is almost a 5W-20

Your Amsoil 0W-30 is thicker than Castrol Edge's 5W-30 and its very close to Pennzoil Platinums numbers for there 5W-30 motor oil.

Why is the 5W-30 XL thinner than the 5W-30 100% synthetic oil that Amsoil sells.

The Viscosity Indexes on your oil's looks pathetic, no wonder your oil's thicken up overtime.

Amsoil Motor Oil is just too THICK, especially for the NORTHERN folks during the wintertime.
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
quote:
Originally posted by johnpr3:
quote:
Of course the United States Patent and Trademark Office approved AMSOIL's trademark "The First in Synthetics", when AMSOIL proved they were the first 100% synthetic oil to meet all API requirements. AMSOIL also submitted volumes of test data showing their oil was the best on the market, and the US Patent and Trademark Office asked for the other oil companies to prove AMSOIL wrong, which they didn't. And of course the trademark has been reviewed and renewed since then. And if you have any data that proves otherwise, please contact the United States Patent and Trademark Office to have them void it.


Tim, that must be public knowledge if it is at the Patent Office. Please Post it here for us to read.

http://tess2.uspto.gov/

Word Mark THE FIRST IN SYNTHETICS
Goods and Services IC 001. US 001 005 006 010 026 046. G & S: Chemical additives for lubricants and fuels; anti-freeze; transmission fluid. FIRST USE: 19910300. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19910300
IC 002. US 006 011 016. G & S: Rust preventatives in the nature of a coating. FIRST USE: 20031112. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20031112

IC 003. US 001 004 006 050 051 052. G & S: Automotive cleaning preparations. FIRST USE: 20040324. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20040324

IC 004. US 001 006 015. G & S: Lubricants, oils and greases for automotive, industrial and commercial use. FIRST USE: 19900400. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19900400

Standard Characters Claimed
Mark Drawing Code (4) STANDARD CHARACTER MARK
Serial Number 78803596
Filing Date January 31, 2006
Current Filing Basis 1A
Original Filing Basis 1A
Published for Opposition December 5, 2006
Registration Number 3210848
Registration Date February 20, 2007
Owner (REGISTRANT) AMSOIL INC. CORPORATION DELAWARE AMSOIL BUILDING Superior WISCONSIN 54880
Attorney of Record Christopher J. Schulte
Prior Registrations 2033283
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register PRINCIPAL-2(F)
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE


Typed Drawing

Word Mark THE FIRST IN SYNTHETICS
Goods and Services IC 004. US 001 006 015. G & S: synthetic lubricating oil; synthetic gear lube; para-synthetic lubricating oil; synthetic turbo lubricating oil; and synthetic automatic transmission fluid. FIRST USE: 19900700. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19900700
Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING
Serial Number 74562272
Filing Date August 17, 1994
Current Filing Basis 1A
Original Filing Basis 1A
Published for Opposition October 22, 1996
Registration Number 2033283
Registration Date January 28, 1997
Owner (REGISTRANT) Amsoil, Inc. CORPORATION DELAWARE Amsoil Bldg. Superior WISCONSIN 54880
Attorney of Record Christopher J. Schulte
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register PRINCIPAL-2(F)
Affidavit Text SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR). SECTION 8(10-YR) 20060713.
Renewal 1ST RENEWAL 20060713
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE


Tim, AMSOIL just patented some words. That doesn't mean anything other than that. Just a slogan.
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
quote:
Tim, AMSOIL just patented some words. That doesn't mean anything other than that. Just a slogan.


I call it plain old MARKETING, Amsoil and there PUSHY Dealers will say anything to sell there product, will they ever learn before its too late, probably not.



TOO LATE BIG BEAR,TOO LATE FOR WHAT.......

....PLEASE TELL US........IS THERE A STORM COMING...........
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Miro Kefurt:


When high quality PAO sells for $8.00 or more per pound and Mobil 1 in store sells for under $8.00 and weights just under 2 pounds, just figure how much virgin PAO is really in it !!!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The other issue besides cost I would think is group I-III oil is a byproduct of the refining process to make fuel,and now what to do with all that lube oil. It would be similar to how big industry gets rid of another industrial by- product..........FLUORIDE.

We are all using/burning some type of fuel that comes from crude oil,and the byproduct of all that refining of crude oil,would be mineral/lube oil as a byproduct.

Big oil is always going to push mineral oil vs synthetic,otherwise how would all that product(mineral oil)get used up.

http://www.elmhurst.edu/~chm/o...utlines/distill.html


Look how much mineral/lube oil is in this graph.

I would think that part of the graph(lube oil) is reserved for all the naysayers in this group against synthetic oil.
They are the ones doing all those 3000 mile oil changes who drink all the mineral oil........Kool-Aid!!

I would think that big oil is totally against using 100% synthetic with extended oil changes,so big oil will always market 3000 mile changes using mineral oil,for more profit, and to "Get Rid" of the lube oil. Only suckers buy into that philosophy,not me!


I also think that automotive diesel technology has not really caught on(politically)in this country vs Europe for the same set of reasons. If more cars got 50 MPG using diesel..........what would big oil do with all that extra........gasoline. What would happen to the price of gasoline,and big oil profits!! It's all about supply and demand,and of course......BIG PROFIT.
Last edited by captainkirk
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
quote:
Tim, AMSOIL just patented some words. That doesn't mean anything other than that. Just a slogan.


I call it plain old MARKETING, Amsoil and there PUSHY Dealers will say anything to sell there product, will they ever learn before its too late, probably not.

But AMSOIL had to prove it to the United States Patent and Trademark Office. And none of the oil companies refuted it then or today.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:Amsoil Motor Oil is just too THICK, especially for the NORTHERN folks during the wintertime.

No it isn't. Look at the Pour Point and Cold Cranking numbers. None better. Pick the 0w-XX and all will be well. AMSOIL is VERY popular in cold climates.

Show me where AMSOIL has ever failed to perform as advertised. No one else has.


Sorry, Tim, but I have seen the Cold Cranking Numbers and they do not look as good as my next oil that I will be using in the wintertime.

Pour Point does not mean anything to me, what means something is the D-4684 test that Amsoil has failed to take part in, without that test I cannot even think of buying Amsoil Motor Oil, its a better test than the ASTM D-5293

Sorry Tim, but in this debate the customer is always right, tell your boss, I think his name is Big Al, that we all want to see Amsoil do an ASTM D-4684 Test, and we are not going to buy that Amsoil thinks its a worthless test, if Amsoil wants are money then they know what they need too do.

Show us the DATA that any of what we are saying is wrong, I have all of the numbers on just about all of the motor oil's and Amsoil is coming up thick and short.
quote:
Originally posted by johnpr3:

"Only 11 percent of survey participants are using synthetic motor oil in their engine."
[/QUOTE]
------------------------------------------


I guess that would mean the other 89% percent are, "out of the loop" in the meantime. Too bad for them,but very good for big oil and all those profits.

Now we know why all those engines sludged up and all the subsequent lawsuits...........everyone(90%+) went to iffy lube and got the cheap bulk oil that is prone to sludge.

Some people(TRAJAN) think(say) that certain engines are prone to sludge,and/or are defective, when in reality,it's certain oils are prone to sludge and or defective.

That 11% percent really shows how clueless the public is. The very same public that just voted for Al Greene in SC.(lol)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...in-gre_n_613453.html

fficial&channel=s&prmd=n&source=univ&tbs=nws:1&tbo=u&ei=w5IiTLepNsK78gayr4W7BQ&sa=X&oi=news_group&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CCAQsQQwAA" target="_blank">http://www.google.com/search?q...um=1&ved=0CCAQsQQwAA
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:Amsoil Motor Oil is just too THICK, especially for the NORTHERN folks during the wintertime.

No it isn't. Look at the Pour Point and Cold Cranking numbers. None better. Pick the 0w-XX and all will be well. AMSOIL is VERY popular in cold climates.

Show me where AMSOIL has ever failed to perform as advertised. No one else has.


Sorry, Tim, but I have seen the Cold Cranking Numbers and they do not look as good as my next oil that I will be using in the wintertime.

Pour Point does not mean anything to me, what means something is the D-4684 test that Amsoil has failed to take part in, without that test I cannot even think of buying Amsoil Motor Oil, its a better test than the ASTM D-5293

Sorry Tim, but in this debate the customer is always right, tell your boss, I think his name is Big Al, that we all want to see Amsoil do an ASTM D-4684 Test, and we are not going to buy that Amsoil thinks its a worthless test, if Amsoil wants are money then they know what they need too do.

Show us the DATA that any of what we are saying is wrong, I have all of the numbers on just about all of the motor oil's and Amsoil is coming up thick and short.



Big Bear..........."Try wrapping your head around this one"
------------------------------------------------

Car talk quote

Unless they changed the rating procedure, the first number describes how the oil will behave (pour point & flow characteristics) at 0 degrees C. Meaning a 0W-20 will behave like a 0 weight oil at 0C, and a 5W-20 will behave like a 5W oil at 0C. That's all the first number is indicating.

0w is xxx cps @ -35F 5w is xxx cPs @ -30F - the limits of stress under the CCS (Cold Crank Simulator) are the same.
MRV rating is more indicative of the differences. Some people think that all 5w's are the same at sensible flows ..as though they get some "free ride" up to operating temperature. A heavier fluid is ALWAYS a heavier fluid. This just means it's pumpable and not spinning around in a gelatinous mass.

Here's Pennzoil's hybrid 0w-20 CCS/MRV spec's

MRV viscosity, cP (°C) ASTD D-4684 16,800 (-40)
CCS Viscosity, cP (°C ) ASTM D-5293 5,600 (-35)

Penzoil's Ultra 5w-20
MRV viscosity, cP(°C)ASTD D-4684 11,700 (-35)
CCS Viscosity, cP(°C)ASTM D-5293 4,250 (-35)

Here's Mobil's M1 0w-40 @ -40C (MRV only)
MRV at -40ºC 26242 cP

In other words, just because you see a 0w doesn't mean that it's not a heavier fluid at that temp in any rational sense. A 0w-20 could indeed be a heavier fluid than a comparative 5w-20 at any temp yet have the CCS and MRV spec's that the 5w-20 cannot meet. That's the case with Mobil's M1 0w-30 vs. 5w-30

It's an extremely hard concept to wrap around if you aren't some physics major. I'm not one. We're used to dealing with (what's called) Newtonian fluids. When those fluids are described in their non-Newtonian terms, it's not easy to understand.



Bear...........so why not use the 10W-30 in this case vs the 5w-20. The 5w-20 offers very little practical cold weather benefit if any. AT 35 below in Canada,any normal engine is plug in and heated.

http://www.pennzoil.com/docume...yntheticMotorOil.pdf
Last edited by captainkirk
quote:
Here's Pennzoil's hybrid 0w-20 CCS/MRV spec's

MRV viscosity, cP (°C) ASTD D-4684 16,800 (-40)
CCS Viscosity, cP (°C ) ASTM D-5293 5,600 (-35)

Penzoil's Ultra 5w-20
MRV viscosity, cP(°C)ASTD D-4684 11,700 (-35)
CCS Viscosity, cP(°C)ASTM D-5293 4,250 (-35)

Here's Mobil's M1 0w-40 @ -40C (MRV only)
MRV at -40ºC 26242 cP



Captain Kirk, which of these oil's would you want in your car if you were in Northern Minnesota during the month of January where overnite lows can dip well below 0 Degrees.

Is it better to have a lower number in the D-4684 and D-5293 tests.
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
quote:
Here's Pennzoil's hybrid 0w-20 CCS/MRV spec's

MRV viscosity, cP (°C) ASTD D-4684 16,800 (-40)
CCS Viscosity, cP (°C ) ASTM D-5293 5,600 (-35)

Penzoil's Ultra 5w-20
MRV viscosity, cP(°C)ASTD D-4684 11,700 (-35)
CCS Viscosity, cP(°C)ASTM D-5293 4,250 (-35)

Here's Mobil's M1 0w-40 @ -40C (MRV only)
MRV at -40ºC 26242 cP



Captain Kirk, which of these oil's would you want in your car if you were in Northern Minnesota during the month of January where overnite lows can dip well below 0 Degrees.

Is it better to have a lower number in the D-4684 and D-5293 tests.


Now you know the answer to that. Simlube isn't on the list.
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:Amsoil Motor Oil is just too THICK, especially for the NORTHERN folks during the wintertime.

No it isn't. Look at the Pour Point and Cold Cranking numbers. None better. Pick the 0w-XX and all will be well. AMSOIL is VERY popular in cold climates.

Show me where AMSOIL has ever failed to perform as advertised. No one else has.


Sorry, Tim, but I have seen the Cold Cranking Numbers and they do not look as good as my next oil that I will be using in the wintertime.
which Cold Cranking numbers are you talking about? Pennzoil 0w20 CCS Viscosity, cP (°C ) ASTM D-5293 5,600 (-35),AMSOIL 0w20 is only 4069. Pennzoil 0w20 is much thicker. No thanks.

quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:Pour Point does not mean anything to me, what means something is the D-4684 test that Amsoil has failed to take part in, without that test I cannot even think of buying Amsoil Motor Oil, its a better test than the ASTM D-5293
Which D-4684 test results are you talking about? Please post the link. This test measures wax crystallization. Since the AMSOIL full chemical synthetic oils contain no wax, this would not be a valid test. This is why Pour Point and Cold Cranking values are used.

quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:Show us the DATA that any of what we are saying is wrong, I have all of the numbers on just about all of the motor oil's and Amsoil is coming up thick and short.
You have to show me some data first. Again, AMSOIL meets all SAE viscosity standards they say they do and the oil has not failed in 38 years. Doesn't get any better than that.
Last edited by timvipond
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Big Bear:

Sorry, Tim, but I have seen the Cold Cranking Numbers and they do not look as good as my next oil that I will be using in the wintertime.

Bear. I see you live in NY. UPSTATE? How cold does it get,and what is a typical cold start for you. Do you heat the oil pan in the winter? Have you ever had cold start issues with any particular oil.

I once ran ran Amsoil 20w-50 in a 1986 regal with a 5.0 olds v8 and it started no problem at around 0 F many times. M1 10-30 would allow valve train rattle at 40 F.

CD-2 detergent allowed the M1 to go another 2k with no rattle/tap for a total of 4k. Amsoil never needed CD-2.
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:


Now you know the answer to that. Simlube isn't on the list.



Trajan..........What is Simlube?

///// 2004 BMW Z4 3.0i sport/premium/convienence pkg. GC 0w30 or M1 0w-40. (TRAJANS FANTASY CAR/OIL)



I, on the other hand,unlike Trajan,use a product called Synlube lube-4-life.

I just drove the Mustang 4.0 V6 down the NJ parkway doing between 80-90 at 95F for a very extended run. I WOT'D the car at 83 and the V6 still had punch to push me back in the seat.......USING THE SYNLUBE LUBE-4-LIFE MOTOR OIL. It now has on the oil about 13K. Remember......the last car was traded with around 60k on said oil...............and never any issues.

The Car uses ZERO OIL.

Instead of spending time changing the oil,I utilized my free time and saved $$$, to go for a drive,dine in Cape May and check out the beach!

Did the same hard fast run back home. Zero oil use,plenty of punch even at over 80 in a V6!


IN SUM,TRAJAN............

Who cares about lists...........I go by P-E-R-F-O-R-M-A-N-C-E....


I don't need a stinking.........list!!!

GIRLIE MEN NEED LISTS!!!!!


TRAJAN........DO YOU NEED A LIST?


Captain Kirk
Last edited by captainkirk
quote:
which Cold Cranking numbers are you talking about? Pennzoil 0w20 CCS Viscosity, cP (°C ) ASTM D-5293 5,600 (-35),AMSOIL 0w20 is only 4069. Pennzoil 0w20 is much thicker. No thanks.


Amsoil 0W-20 4069 @ -35

Castrol Edge 0W-20 3860 @ -35

Tim, I do not want to hear nor do I care about Castrol's Warranty or Amsoil's Warranty, nor do I care about Amsoil's 38 year history, I am living in the present not the past.

Until your beloved Amsoil 0W-20 beats Castrol Edge in the ASTM D-5293 test, which is not going to happen anytime soon, then I am saying NO THANKS to Amsoil 0W-20 and your annoying sales tactics.
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
quote:
which Cold Cranking numbers are you talking about? Pennzoil 0w20 CCS Viscosity, cP (°C ) ASTM D-5293 5,600 (-35),AMSOIL 0w20 is only 4069. Pennzoil 0w20 is much thicker. No thanks.


Amsoil 0W-20 4069 @ -35

Castrol Edge 0W-20 3860 @ -35

Tim, I do not want to hear nor do I care about Castrol's Warranty or Amsoil's Warranty, nor do I care about Amsoil's 38 year history, I am living in the present not the past.

Until your beloved Amsoil 0W-20 beats Castrol Edge in the ASTM D-5293 test, which is not going to happen anytime soon, then I am saying NO THANKS to Amsoil 0W-20 and your annoying sales tactics.


http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/asm.aspx


Why is castrol better.....'overall',than Amsoil.



Also,3800+- vs 4000+- at -35.......Meaningless...both will flow very good at that temp I would think
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
quote:
which Cold Cranking numbers are you talking about? Pennzoil 0w20 CCS Viscosity, cP (°C ) ASTM D-5293 5,600 (-35),AMSOIL 0w20 is only 4069. Pennzoil 0w20 is much thicker. No thanks.


Amsoil 0W-20 4069 @ -35

Castrol Edge 0W-20 3860 @ -35

Tim, I do not want to hear nor do I care about Castrol's Warranty or Amsoil's Warranty, nor do I care about Amsoil's 38 year history, I am living in the present not the past.

Until your beloved Amsoil 0W-20 beats Castrol Edge in the ASTM D-5293 test, which is not going to happen anytime soon, then I am saying NO THANKS to Amsoil 0W-20 and your annoying sales tactics.
And I'm saying NO THANKS to BP CASTROL for the largest environmental disaster in the United States. You really want to support a company like BP CASTROL with that environmental and safety record? I thought you were an American....
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
quote:
Why is castrol better.....'overall',than Amsoil.


Captain Kirk, it has a better 40 Degree Celcius and 100 degree Celcius Number, I just want a thin oil for the WINTERTIME, and I just feel that Castrol Edge 0W-20 will serve my engine better than Amsoil 0W-20
I just feel that AMSOIL will serve our country better than BP/Castrol who can now claim the worst environmental disaster in the history of our country, plus killed dozens of Americans. I can't believe any American would want to support such a company...
I am glad that somebody finally noticed and admitted that the AMSOIL trademark slogan is just that and nothing more no proof of anything, but continuation of the deceptive practices that AMSOIL has always used, going back to the myth of military service by it's founder - who was nothing more than a mechanic on base in Alaska.

As for volume and trade information if you buy ExxonMobil stock you get annual report - you can find their data there.

If you are member of the Lubricant Industry you get trade publications with all the data, and unlike some of you I do have a respect for Copyright, and since those publications are not FREE or available on Web to unregistered users, likewise I will not "steal" and reprint their data.

But I will give you the link to ordering their guide

http://www.lngpublishing.com/BaseStockGuide/index.cfm

Hint: No company can "sell" more product (like Mobil 1 with PAO) than is their production capacity, unless of course what they sell is NOT what they claim it to be - i.e. really dilluted with other stuf. Only 5 companies in the world produce and sell commercially PAO. It has NEVER been priced by the Gallon, the price was and always is quoted in pounds (or in Europe in Kg).
Last edited by mirokefurt
quote:
Originally posted by Miro Kefurt:
I am glad that somebody finally noticed and admitted that the AMSOIL trademark slogan is just that and nothing more no proof of anything, but continuation of the deceptive practices that AMSOIL has always used, going back to the myth of military service by it's founder - who was nothing more than a mechanic on base in Alaska.
Nobody has admitted that. Certainly not AMSOIL, nor the United States Patent and Trademark Office. Nor disputed by any oil company, government agency, or consumer agency. If you feel that strongly, take it up with the US government. But since they already investigated the claims thoroughly, I don't think you will have any luck.

quote:
Originally posted by Miro Kefurt:As for volume and trade information if you buy ExxonMobil stock you get annual report - you can find theri data there.
. Please post. I already posted Exxon data that conflicts with what you said.

quote:
Originally posted by Miro Kefurt:If you are member of the Lubricant Industry you get trade publications with all the data, and unlike some of you I do have a respect for Copyright, and since tose publications are not FREE or available on Web to unregistered users, likewise I will not "steal" and reprint their data.
The information I published was FREE on the internet. Please provide specific report names, page numbers and proof of Copyright. You already gave some data, with no proof of anything. Go to any retail store, dealership, oil change place and you will find they sell much more than the 2% synthetic oil that you claim.
quote:
Tim Vipond


Please just stick with:

Natural Organic soil supplements for your yard and garden

At least there you can grow two crops next to each other in the same garden and have "proof" that it really works in just one growing season.

Yet I have not seen a single AMSOIL dealer do that YET, why not ???

Hey just ask Al to send me a certified copy of his discharge papers, that is all the proof I need.

Till then I will go by what I already know and have known for years...

Short of that I just want to understand how someone not in the service for admitedly years was in that same time promoted from "pilot" to "squadron commander".

All you have to do is check the "history" AMSOIL published 26 years and 32 years ago - even those claims DO not match, but then COLONEL DRAKE was no COLONEL either, may by that is why this was "perpetrated".

Pouring ETO-85 into just another bottle (from the metal can it used to come in) is not exactly formulating the first Synthetic Motor Oil, especially since the can lid has "NOT FOR USE AS MOTOR LUBRICANT" on it from OEM.

But hey if you have worn out old PINTO, not much more damage can happen by using it especially in Alaska.
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
The information I published was FREE on the internet.


LOL

Ah so now any FREE Information on Internet becomes the new gospel.

"Well the Plaedians have just Landed using the LUXOR beam as a target destination, so I have to go, as I am a member of the extraterrestial welcoming commitee that really has only one objective to sperad unlimited gambling into the unknown universe!"

Must be true I found it on the Internet toooooo..........
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
quote:
which Cold Cranking numbers are you talking about? Pennzoil 0w20 CCS Viscosity, cP (°C ) ASTM D-5293 5,600 (-35),AMSOIL 0w20 is only 4069. Pennzoil 0w20 is much thicker. No thanks.


Amsoil 0W-20 4069 @ -35

Castrol Edge 0W-20 3860 @ -35

Tim, I do not want to hear nor do I care about Castrol's Warranty or Amsoil's Warranty, nor do I care about Amsoil's 38 year history, I am living in the present not the past.

Until your beloved Amsoil 0W-20 beats Castrol Edge in the ASTM D-5293 test, which is not going to happen anytime soon, then I am saying NO THANKS to Amsoil 0W-20 and your annoying sales tactics.
And I'm saying NO THANKS to BP CASTROL for the largest environmental disaster in the United States. You really want to support a company like BP CASTROL with that environmental and safety record? I thought you were an American....


And just what does that have to do with oil quality?

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