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6467


Toyota Sludge V-6 Engine

Frank Miller co -inv


  10/6/2001 10:59:36 AM

This problem is not isolated to just the Toyota V-6, it effects BMW, Chrysler, Lexus
it's not caused by oil and oil can't fix the problem.Don't use solvents to try and clean sludge, we have reports of engine seizing up, internal seal failures.www.auto-rx.com

 


6474

RE: Toyota Sludge V-6 Engine



  10/9/2001 12:15:23 AM

What then Frank, is the cause of this very common Toyota problem?

 

6561

RE: RE: Toyota Sludge V-6 Engine


james taylor

  10/2001 8:16:30 PM

i dont know

 




9185

RE: RE: RE: Toyota Sludge V-6 Engine



Charlene Blake


  3/18/2003 2:09:37 PM

As owners continue to contact me in frustration about the current ENGINE OIL SLUDGE customer support program at Toyota, I see some interesting trends. I am wondering if others can come forward to confirm.

First, there is a NATIONAL backorder of pistons and piston rings used in the sludge repair program. I have noted that one owner had to wait SIX WEEKS for these parts to come in. Another owner was told by her service manager that there is a "problem with getting supplies....the piston rings are on backorder."

This begs the question....WHY, if there are so few sludge victims out there, are the parts not available. I recall when Iwas involved in the Chrysler ABS defect debacle that the ABS parts were also on NATIONAL BACKORDER for months. Is Toyota actually being overwhelmed with repair need? Are these part delays directly related to the incidence of sludge cases? Perhaps some technicians will comment?

Now, what about the fouling of the emissions control components? Why are so many OXYGEN SENSORS going bad? Don't these components affect the air/fuel ratio in the vehicle? Why are CATALYTIC CONVERTERS going bad after sludge repairs? Why is it that so many fuel system related components are being replaced just before the onset of sludge? Spark plug are fouling. Owners report misfiring and poor engine performance. Some owners are reporting failed state emissions tests.

I have noted in the past the trend in sludge occurrence based on model year. I have noted that the 2000 vehicle...Sienna, Camry, etc., seems to be showing the earliest sludge. Are these owners just even worse at maintaining their vehicles, do you think? I think that notion is absurd! The 1999 model are showing the sludge around 36,000-40,000miles. The 2000 models show it much sooner.....25,000-36,000 miles. There are scores of vehicles which had the problem at UNDER 20,000 miles on the vehicle. This refutes Mike Michels', spokesperson at Toyota, claim that owners are not changing their oil for 20,000-30,000 miles! What a joke! He is the same fellow who says that Toyota is "unaware of engine oil sludge in vehicles which have been properly maintained."

There are a some owners who had sludge develop in their Sienna vehices within the first year of ownership and with less than 15,000 miles on the vehicle. Tell me what Mr. Michels has to say about those cases!

I see a trend on oil analysis for a greatly reduced initial oil viscosity even with less than 1,600 miles on the engine oil. When the engine oil gets closer to the outside limit of the owner's manual recommended oil change interval, the oil shows maximum nitration and almost equal oxidation. The oil is out of grade. It is essentially TOO THIN. Is this the precursor to SLUDGE development? Is there great heat and engine wear as the oil loses its lubrication effectiveness so early in the life of the oil????? Is the resulting high heat effectively COOKING THE OIL within?

An EXXON lubrication specialist mentioned "cold spots" where the acids can accumulate. Is there such an area within the oil passages of these vehicles? If so, would it first appear as VARNISH and baked on oil and later as SLUDGE if the condition is not corrected? Where might this varnish first appear? What would it look like?

Please, technicians and oil specialists, please chime in. We need a good, analytical discussion as we had a Edmund's before I the discussion was abruptly CLOSED.

Let's examine the recent reports of engine compartment fires after the affected engines throw a rod through the block. First of all, is it the thick sludge or even the precursor condition of reduced viscosity, fuel-contamined oil that results in the engine rod being thrown? THEN, what apsect of this condition would cause a CATASTROPHIC FIRE in the engine compartment? I have recently read such reports and I would like to know the connection.

Thank you for your CONSTRUCTIVE addition to this discussion from a technical, and analytical perspective. If you choose to use personal attacks in this discussion, I will forward them to the site maintainer for removal. Opposing technical views are welcome.

Charlene Blake
cblake@erols.com





9186

RE: RE: Toyota Sludge V-6 Engine


Charlene Blake

  3/18/2003 2:10:04 PM

  As owners continue to contact me in frustration about the current ENGINE OIL SLUDGE customer support program at Toyota, I see some interesting trends. I am wondering if others can come forward to confirm.

First, there is a NATIONAL backorder of pistons and piston rings used in the sludge repair program. I have noted that one owner had to wait SIX WEEKS for these parts to come in. Another owner was told by her service manager that there is a "problem with getting supplies....the piston rings are on backorder."

This begs the question....WHY, if there are so few sludge victims out there, are the parts not available. I recall when Iwas involved in the Chrysler ABS defect debacle that the ABS parts were also on NATIONAL BACKORDER for months. Is Toyota actually being overwhelmed with repair need? Are these part delays directly related to the incidence of sludge cases? Perhaps some technicians will comment?

Now, what about the fouling of the emissions control components? Why are so many OXYGEN SENSORS going bad? Don't these components affect the air/fuel ratio in the vehicle? Why are CATALYTIC CONVERTERS going bad after sludge repairs? Why is it that so many fuel system related components are being replaced just before the onset of sludge? Spark plug are fouling. Owners report misfiring and poor engine performance. Some owners are reporting failed state emissions tests.

I have noted in the past the trend in sludge occurrence based on model year. I have noted that the 2000 vehicle...Sienna, Camry, etc., seems to be showing the earliest sludge. Are these owners just even worse at maintaining their vehicles, do you think? I think that notion is absurd! The 1999 model are showing the sludge around 36,000-40,000miles. The 2000 models show it much sooner.....25,000-36,000 miles. There are scores of vehicles which had the problem at UNDER 20,000 miles on the vehicle. This refutes Mike Michels', spokesperson at Toyota, claim that owners are not changing their oil for 20,000-30,000 miles! What a joke! He is the same fellow who says that Toyota is "unaware of engine oil sludge in vehicles which have been properly maintained."

There are a some owners who had sludge develop in their Sienna vehices within the first year of ownership and with less than 15,000 miles on the vehicle. Tell me what Mr. Michels has to say about those cases!

I see a trend on oil analysis for a greatly reduced initial oil viscosity even with less than 1,600 miles on the engine oil. When the engine oil gets closer to the outside limit of the owner's manual recommended oil change interval, the oil shows maximum nitration and almost equal oxidation. The oil is out of grade. It is essentially TOO THIN. Is this the precursor to SLUDGE development? Is there great heat and engine wear as the oil loses its lubrication effectiveness so early in the life of the oil????? Is the resulting high heat effectively COOKING THE OIL within?

An EXXON lubrication specialist mentioned "cold spots" where the acids can accumulate. Is there such an area within the oil passages of these vehicles? If so, would it first appear as VARNISH and baked on oil and later as SLUDGE if the condition is not corrected? Where might this varnish first appear? What would it look like?

Please, technicians and oil specialists, please chime in. We need a good, analytical discussion as we had a Edmund's before I the discussion was abruptly CLOSED.

Let's examine the recent reports of engine compartment fires after the affected engines throw a rod through the block. First of all, is it the thick sludge or even the precursor condition of reduced viscosity, fuel-contamined oil that results in the engine rod being thrown? THEN, what apsect of this condition would cause a CATASTROPHIC FIRE in the engine compartment? I have recently read such reports and I would like to know the connection.

Thank you for your CONSTRUCTIVE addition to this discussion from a technical, and analytical perspective. If you choose to use personal attacks in this discussion, I will forward them to the site maintainer for removal. Opposing technical views are welcome.

Charlene Blake
cblake@erols.com


9187
RE: Toyota Sludge V-6 Engine
Charlene Blake

  3/18/2003 2:10:22 PM



As owners continue to contact me in frustration about the current ENGINE OIL SLUDGE customer support program at Toyota, I see some interesting trends. I am wondering if others can come forward to confirm.

First, there is a NATIONAL backorder of pistons and piston rings used in the sludge repair program. I have noted that one owner had to wait SIX WEEKS for these parts to come in. Another owner was told by her service manager that there is a "problem with getting supplies....the piston rings are on backorder."

This begs the question....WHY, if there are so few sludge victims out there, are the parts not available. I recall when Iwas involved in the Chrysler ABS defect debacle that the ABS parts were also on NATIONAL BACKORDER for months. Is Toyota actually being overwhelmed with repair need? Are these part delays directly related to the incidence of sludge cases? Perhaps some technicians will comment?

Now, what about the fouling of the emissions control components? Why are so many OXYGEN SENSORS going bad? Don't these components affect the air/fuel ratio in the vehicle? Why are CATALYTIC CONVERTERS going bad after sludge repairs? Why is it that so many fuel system related components are being replaced just before the onset of sludge? Spark plug are fouling. Owners report misfiring and poor engine performance. Some owners are reporting failed state emissions tests.

I have noted in the past the trend in sludge occurrence based on model year. I have noted that the 2000 vehicle...Sienna, Camry, etc., seems to be showing the earliest sludge. Are these owners just even worse at maintaining their vehicles, do you think? I think that notion is absurd! The 1999 model are showing the sludge around 36,000-40,000miles. The 2000 models show it much sooner.....25,000-36,000 miles. There are scores of vehicles which had the problem at UNDER 20,000 miles on the vehicle. This refutes Mike Michels', spokesperson at Toyota, claim that owners are not changing their oil for 20,000-30,000 miles! What a joke! He is the same fellow who says that Toyota is "unaware of engine oil sludge in vehicles which have been properly maintained."

There are a some owners who had sludge develop in their Sienna vehices within the first year of ownership and with less than 15,000 miles on the vehicle. Tell me what Mr. Michels has to say about those cases!

I see a trend on oil analysis for a greatly reduced initial oil viscosity even with less than 1,600 miles on the engine oil. When the engine oil gets closer to the outside limit of the owner's manual recommended oil change interval, the oil shows maximum nitration and almost equal oxidation. The oil is out of grade. It is essentially TOO THIN. Is this the precursor to SLUDGE development? Is there great heat and engine wear as the oil loses its lubrication effectiveness so early in the life of the oil????? Is the resulting high heat effectively COOKING THE OIL within?

An EXXON lubrication specialist mentioned "cold spots" where the acids can accumulate. Is there such an area within the oil passages of these vehicles? If so, would it first appear as VARNISH and baked on oil and later as SLUDGE if the condition is not corrected? Where might this varnish first appear? What would it look like?

Please, technicians and oil specialists, please chime in. We need a good, analytical discussion as we had a Edmund's before I the discussion was abruptly CLOSED.

Let's examine the recent reports of engine compartment fires after the affected engines throw a rod through the block. First of all, is it the thick sludge or even the precursor condition of reduced viscosity, fuel-contamined oil that results in the engine rod being thrown? THEN, what apsect of this condition would cause a CATASTROPHIC FIRE in the engine compartment? I have recently read such reports and I would like to know the connection.

Thank you for your CONSTRUCTIVE addition to this discussion from a technical, and analytical perspective. If you choose to use personal attacks in this discussion, I will forward them to the site maintainer for removal. Opposing technical views are welcome.

Charlene Blake
cblake@erols.com



10859

Toyota Sludge V-6 Engine

Bob Calvary


  12/8/2003 1:02:29 PM



I have a 2001 Camry LE 3.0 with 48,000 miles on it. I have ALWAYS changed the oil at 3,000 miles. 3 days ago I had drained the oil and when I started to pour the new oil into the motor I noticed a hard crusty film about 1/16" to 3/32" thick inside the valve cover oil opening. I scrapped it off and was careful not to let any get into the engine but the space where the oil flows into the engine was restricted so much that the oil drained slowly. I was sure it was part of the sludge problem but after seeing the valve cover removed (by Toyota) it looked like a new engine with my own eyes I wanted to let others know what the tech said. Where you pour the oil into the car is slightly cupped and a small amount of oil can't get into the engine so it sets there and cooks with the high temperature and forms the carbon crust. This will not hurt the engine because it is separated. I was please to find I didn't have the sludge problem but I want to let others know so they will not make the same mistake I did. bcalvary@tampabay.rr.com

 


11017


RE: Toyota Sludge V-6 Engine

John Petty


  1/3/2004 11:04:42 AM



 
We have a 2000 Sienna that had sludge problems and Toyota fixed the engine. But just 30,000 miles later the engine blows and they tell me that a piston broke and that that sometimes just happens. They also said that they did not replace any parts in the engine but just cleaned it out. Could the sludge from before caused that. No engine light ever came on. The only indicator was the oil light for a few miles. When it came on I pulled over and checked the oil and it was perfect. We have reciepts for every oil change and it was done regular.



11025


RE: Toyota Sludge V-6 Engine

Kevin Chinery



  1/5/2004 5:38:08 PM



MY 99 Camry just blew its engine, regular oil changes and only 51K miles on it!

 

"Toyota Owners Unite for Resolution"

http://www.petitiononline.com/TMC2003/petition.html

[This message was edited by Charlene Blake on Tue March 16 2004 at 10:49 PM.]
Last edited {1}
Original Post

Replies sorted oldest to newest

Where to find information on the Toyota engine sludge problem:

www.toyota.com

Here you can find announcement of sludge program, copy of the letter that was to be sent to 3.3 million owners, and acknowledgement by Toyota that this is just an issue with two specific Toyota engine designs. Toyota says it is not a design problem, but an owner maintenance issue, yet limits the policy to two specific engines over a given range of time.

www.AERA.org

The information on this site is not readily available except to mechanics, however, one of their announcements addresses the problem. In this announcement they discuss the problem of sludge in properly maintained engines (something that Toyota says is an impossibility).

www.nhtsa.gov

This government-run web site includes owners’ report of sludge engine failures by year and by auto make and model. Search under “Problems and Issues” heading. NHTSA opened an investigation into the sludge problem in 2002 but closed the investigation in a matter of a few months because of Toyota’s announcement of the sludge policy.

MSN Autos site:
www.autos.msn.com/research/vip/reviews.aspx?modelid=9448&trimid=-1&src=VIP&tab=4

The above link is for the Avalon, but all the models covered by the sludge policy are reported to have significant engine problems. These ratings are based on reports from independent garages (not ones that are manufacturer affiliated) so they give an unbiased picture of problems that these garages see in vehicles.

www.yotarepair.com

A former Toyota mechanic acknowledges the problem. (this site dedicated to Toyota’s even has a “Sludge Zone”

www.autonews.com

AutoNews and several other publications included the announcement of the sludge problem in February and April 2002. Several publications had subsequent announcements.

www.autosafety.org

See complaints (all since AFTER the announcement of the sludge policy) on Toyota engines. Also has link to Auto News article

www.petitiononline.com/TMC2003/petition.html

As of this writing, over 375 signatures of owners who have experienced sludge and are dissatisfied with Toyotas response to their problem.

www.google.com

Do a web search for “Toyota Engine Sludge” and you find numerous reports of engine sludge in Toyota’s.

www.toyotatechs.com

View from a garage that specializes in Toyotas.

www.edmunds.com

See discussion of engine sludge on this forum, including one by Toyota rep (tmsusa1).

www.corolland.com

Includes discussion of sludge problem.

Numerous other websites with sludge reports include:

www.rateitall.com
www.toyotaownersclub.com
www.lexusownersclub.com
Toyota Owners Unite for Resolution web site
www.complaints.com
www.carsurvey.org
www.carreview.com
www.talkaboutautos.com
www.ripoffreport.com
www.realcaraudio.com
www.toyota-automotive-store.com
www.thecomplaintstation.com
www.toyonda.com
www.oilanalysis.com
www.toyotaworld.com

http://www.petitiononline.com/TMC2003/petition.html

"Toyota Owners Unite for Resolution"

"Toyota Owners Unite for Resolution"
I'm not denying that the engine is hard on oil, but with short intervals and good oil they seem to do fine. It is, however a particularly poor canidate for brand "x" bulk oil, or quicky-lube places (the wrong oil or not changing the filter would really screw you on a sludge prone engine).

A decent Group II+ oil like Chevron Supreme or Pennzoil changed at 3k would be pretty safe, though I personally would want to do at least occasional oil analysis too. For a little extra piece of mind, running a $4-5/qt Group IV or PAO synthetic wouldn't be a bad plan either. Nothing wrong with the AutoRX suggestion also.

I wonder whether a colder t-stat, different fan thermal switch, or an oil cooler would help any...but since the problem seems relatively minor it probably isn't worth it.



I did find the comment about the person whose engine died from lack of pressure after the oil warning light came on amusing. One would think that they would have known that the Service Engine Soon/MIL light has utterly no connection to mechanically conditions such as overheating or low oil pressure!


I really don't want to seem like I'm bashing amsoil, but I wonder if since this engine has a historty of the problem, the amsoil warantee wouldn't apply?
The problem here is simple, and Toyota has identified it. It is simply owners who do not use good oils and go too long between changes.

Sludge is ONLY formed when using PETROLEUM oils. At high heat, petroleum oil forms sludge.

Solution? Use ONLY a PREMIUM 100% synthetic Oil. No more sludge.

As far as the other ideas suggested like changing to a cooler thermostat, etc. DON'T DO IT!! That engine and computer is designed to run at a certain temperature. And, putting in a cooler thermostat can actually cause your engine to run hotter, just like having no thermostat.

A thermostat is designed to keep the coolant in the radiator for a certain period of time. Then at the desired temp it opens and the coolant flows. Opening too soon due to a lower temperature can cause the coolant to flow out too quickly and not have the time in front of the airflow needed to cool.

Every engine is designed to run at a specific temperature.
There is no real solution to the Toyota engine oil sludge problem. It does not matter when you change your oil or what kind of oil you use (even synthetic), you cannot guarantee that you will not develop Toyota engine oil sludge. This is documented well by Toyota owner experiences. Some would like you to believe that Toyota owners aren't telling the truth; their accounts are accurate.

Please read the Toyota owner accounts at "Toyota Owners Unite for Resolution: Engine Oil Sludge" at http://www.petitiononline.com/TMC2003/petition.html.

Engine oil analyses are important in uncovering what is happening in these engines. The TBN is going below 2 with 5,000 mile oil changes. The TBN is below 3 even with 3,000 mile oil changes. The viscosity is reduced with as little as 3,000 miles on the oil. There is high silicon levels on each oil analysis.

The oil is designated "Abnormal Lubricant Condition." All this in a 1999 Toyota Sienna, currently with roughly 70,000 miles on it.

So what is really going on in these engines? More importantly, why are we being blamed? This is unacceptable.

*************************************
Charlene,

That is a bunch of crap! I am not pro-Toyota, but engine oil sludge is an OIL problem, not an engine problem. That is SCIENCE, not opinion. Just look at the total number of Toyota engines produced, and then the number with this alleged problem. It is a very SMALL percentage. I am a mechanic with a racing and engineering background. I can tell you for an absolute fact, oil sludge is an oil problem. SYNTHETIC oil CANNOT form sludge unless superheated way beyond the temp a street car can be heated. If you use a PREMIUM SYNTHETIC OIL of the proper viscosity, and change as required, You WILL NOT get sludge. That's a fact.
Steve, mechanic or not, the fact is that there are Toyota owners who DID have engines develop sludge after using synthetic oils. In addition, Toyota owners who changed their oil every 3,000 miles have also had sludge develop in their engines. I am not sure why you would be compelled to deny what is fact.

I see that you cite a "small" number of occurrences. Are you referring to the number that Toyota gave to the public? Why do you think this is accurate? A Toyota executive says that Toyota counts those who have formally notified it...e.g. letter written.

Do you suppose all the sludge victims have written to formally notify Toyota? Before the CSP, Toyota blamed countless owners and encouraged them to trade in their sludged vehicles quickly. Do you think they wrote to Toyota? Why hasn't Toyota updated the number of sludge victims? There are over 1600+ owners who have found my rather obscurely-located online petition since 2003...one full year after the implementation of the CSP. Has Toyota counted these individuals? What is the current number anyway? Do you suppose Toyota will tell us? Do you think anyone is overseeing this count?

I am sure that Toyota's mantra is "small" just like it's mantra is "this is an owner maintenance issue." I will tell you, Steve, the Toyota owners think there is much more to this problem and they are not happy about the "Blame Game" being played by TMC!

I believe you are right when you say that sludge is an oil issue. However, you have not taken into consideration the effect of these engines on that oil. You have not allowed for the possibility of a defect that hastens the wear of the oil. This is where I believe your theory is flawed.

I doubt I am alone....

Charlene Blake
cblake@erols.com
Toyota Owners Unite for Resolution
http://www.petitiononline.com/TMC2003/petition.html
Don't know anything about the Toyota problem and can't say I want to. Smile I don't work on them. However, as a life long mechanic and also a lubricant salesman I can tell you that it's not all the oils fault. I have seen numerous engine designs over the years that are very hard on oil. Even the tried and true GM 5.7L 350 small block had it's problems. At one time I owned a 1988 G30 cube van with this engine and found that deposit's were horrible in this engine around the EGR port in the head even with synthetic oil. The first time I did valve cover gaskets in it I found close to a 1 inch thick solid mass of crud around the EGR port area of the head. It was just prone to happen, it's a hot spot. It's not just Toyota and it's not just the oil used, it's a design flaw.
I see this tread quit often. I've had many toyota's and I believe this sludge problem goes futher than just Toyota. It's just toyota's problem seems to be worst. All my vehicle have gone over 100K and none has had any oil issues. The big problem with dino oil is sludge in the form of water. Most people do not warm up their vehicles enough to burn this water out which turns into sludge. To alleviate this problem, one can change over to a synthetic of a PAO package. This is what I use along with Group III synthetics and never had a sludge issure. Need to remember, synthetic don't mix with water and has a higher detergent package. Too many of us read the manual and do as they say about oil changes but, don't drive in the manner your instructed to. I see this same problem with automatic transmission except their problem is from heat. Dino oil starts to break down at 250 degrees and seperates and that's the discoloration you see in automatic transmission fluid.
quote:
Originally posted by Charlene Blake:
Steve, mechanic or not, the fact is that there are Toyota owners who DID have engines develop sludge after using synthetic oils. In addition, Toyota owners who changed their oil every 3,000 miles have also had sludge develop in their engines. I am not sure why you would be compelled to deny what is fact.

I see that you cite a "small" number of occurrences. Are you referring to the number that Toyota gave to the public? Why do you think this is accurate? A Toyota executive says that Toyota counts those who have formally notified it...e.g. letter written.

Do you suppose all the sludge victims have written to formally notify Toyota? Before the CSP, Toyota blamed countless owners and encouraged them to trade in their sludged vehicles quickly. Do you think they wrote to Toyota? Why hasn't Toyota updated the number of sludge victims? There are over 1600+ owners who have found my rather obscurely-located online petition since 2003...one full year after the implementation of the CSP. Has Toyota counted these individuals? What is the current number anyway? Do you suppose Toyota will tell us? Do you think anyone is overseeing this count?

I am sure that Toyota's mantra is "small" just like it's mantra is "this is an owner maintenance issue." I will tell you, Steve, the Toyota owners think there is much more to this problem and they are not happy about the "Blame Game" being played by TMC!

I believe you are right when you say that sludge is an oil issue. However, you have not taken into consideration the effect of these engines on that oil. You have not allowed for the possibility of a defect that hastens the wear of the oil. This is where I believe your theory is flawed.

I doubt I am alone....

Charlene Blake
cblake@erols.com
Toyota Owners Unite for Resolution
http://www.petitiononline.com/TMC2003/petition.html
I quoted Charlene Blake's post, above, and now would like to comment on it and others by the same author in this forum:

Much of these posts appear to be pure spin. Statements made are very clearly grossly exaggerated, and many alleged "facts" are misrepresented.

First question needing to be addressed is "Why is Toyota being singled out and badmouthed over any other carmaker?"
Are there no other auto manufacturers in this world?
Is Toyota the only auto manufacturer guilty of the sins alleged?
Why (and how) is Toyota any different than any of the the others?

Next question.
Why has the author chosen to spam these
same messages in hundreds of other sites on the net?

Next question.
A claim is made that there are 1600 or so names in a petition (not "obscurely located" BTW--it is clearly referenced in the hundreds of spammed messages noted in the previous question!)
Why too are there so many empty spaces which comprise the "1600" names? (empty spaces are counted in the total, but no names shown!) Over half the total spaces are "voided" for some reason--Why? (A little convenient "editing" perhaps?)

Next question.
Are we considered so naive as to believe that all cases of sludge are the fault of Toyota and no other cause? Has any effort ever been made to confirm even one of the stories we are supposed to blindly accept as gospel?

Next question.
Is anyone "overseeing" the veracity and integrity of the information we are being told to accept as gospel in the post above?

Next question.
Has any real live defect ever been discovered in the engines which are accused of being defective?

Next question.
Is Toyota the only carmaker to supposedly have a sludge issue? If there are others, which are the worst?

More questions can be and should be asked of this prolific poster (spammer?), but if history is any indication, none will ever be answered by the author for rather obvious reasons!
(It would mean having to be truthful--something the author is evidently incapable of!)
One must laugh at the pathetic attempts by Charlene Blake to garner attention to these bizzare claims of malfeasance by automakers.
It clearly smacks of a neurotic obsession.
When challenged as to authenticity of these outragious allegations, she responds with diversion tactics such as this forum, and launches irrational tirades about how we are being mistreated by those who disagree with her rants.
One of her favourite expressions...."am not on trial here or elsewhere", is laughable.
Charlene completely ignores the reality re what she puts into the public view is always subject to challenge, and makes her own rules..."NO ONE CAN CHALLENGE ME BECAUSE I'M NOT ON TRIAL!!"
Well Charlene, in a sense YOU aren't on trial, but what you say publicly is on trial, and always will be.
No one, not even the inscrutable (???) Charlene Blake, can insist everyone bow down before her and accept what she says without question.
Especially when what Charlene claims is so outragious, so manipulative, so misleading, so full of untruths, so full of imagery, inference, and innuendo, as to be crying out for challenge.
Charlene Blake may not be on trial, but her campaign of lies certainly is.
And she has no right to suggest otherwise!!
When put to the test of truth, integrity, and rational objectivity, Charlene Blake's claims fail miserably.
Charlene, you have failed, and your failure to admit your failure is unquestionably your biggest failure of all!!
I have attached some advice for Toyota consumers (or any other make as well) with ENGINE OIL SLUDGE. Toyota sludge continues and so does the denial of coverage under Toyota's very own "Customer Support Program for Engine Oil Gelation." What I have done is but the tip of the iceberg in terms of uncovering the details from thousands of Toyota owners online. These owners include some vehicles not currently included under the CSP--Corolla, Matrix, Rav4, 4Runner, Tacoma, etc.

If you have an affected vehicle--Camry, Avalon, Sienna, Celica, Highlander, Solara, Lexus RX330, Lexus ES300, etc.--you need to insist that Toyota actually honor its "unprecedented" and "generous" program. After all, the company has bragged about it for years! Have you noticed how visible the program has been since initiated in 2002, though?!? "Out of sight, out of mind" must be Toyota's motto!

Those who own the other models may well have to do what the other owners had to do before--voice loudly and often their concerns. Unfortunately, you cannot pull up the 10,000 angry Toyota postings from the now defunct "Complaint Station for Toyota" as the site mysteriously went down in 2004. Same is true for the Cartrackers.com Toyota forum. You have to really dig to find the CarSpace.com (once "Town Hall" at Edmund's) archives on Toyota engine oil sludge. No, such information has been effectively buried...and I guess for good reason considering how many new complaints are emerging!!

Some Toyota owners are noting thrown engine rods, failed emissions testing, and even ENGINE FIRES! Sludge clogs up their vehicles engines until catastrophic failure results. This has happened in as little as 12,000 miles on brand new Highlander! The reason the original sludge victims were so angry is because their new vehicle warranty was made VOID by this engine-choking material.

Toyota blamed the vehicle owners in the beginning. It STILL blames them. There has been no ownership of responsiblity in this matter other than to say that "certain" models are predisposed to owner neglect (lack of maintenance according to Toyota). Hmmmm...makes sense...NOT!

Toyota won't give the updated figures for sludge complaints. Who or what is monitoring what it does? No one, apparently. The NHTSA accepts the CSP but isn't keeping tabs on the follow through.

It is important for the Toyota owners to SPEAK OUT. Start by signing my petition entitled "Toyota Owners Unite for Resolution: Engine Oil Sludge." It can be found at http://www.petitiononline.com/TMC2003/petition.html. Take the time to read the Toyota owner online accounts.

Consider getting engine oil analyses regularly to find out what is happening to your engine oil over time. You will be quite surprised, no doubt.

Contact me for further information.

Charlene Blake
cblake@erols.com
charleneblake@cox.net
Charlene, I tend to believe your side of the story. Toyota, faced with a potentially huge recall could very well be trying to avoid its responsibilities. People tend to be very loyal to companies they believe to be good to them and I think Toyota, now swimming in profit, might be getting a bit arrogant and taking advantage of this. We'll see.

Let me throw in this consideration. There has been some contention above that if a synthetic oil is used, no sludge will develop and you have disagreed. This is a classic case of the two sides not defining what they are discussing.

IF the lubricant is a true synthetic lubricant such as SynLube, Redline or Amsoil, sludge will not be an issue. These are true synthetic lubes. They have a much greater ability to tolerate heat and to release heat once away from the heat source. I don't think you will find any case of sludge when these oils are used.

Other oils, marketed as 'synthetics' like Castrol Syntec and others by Pennzoil and Quaker State to name a few are petroleum products based on Group III base oil. In my view, the marketing of these products amounts to a hoax where the marketers make a large profit selling the consumer something different than he thinks he's buying. People who bought these oils may indeed be among those you have heard from.
quote:
Originally posted by Houckster:
Charlene, I tend to believe your side of the story. Toyota, faced with a potentially huge recall could very well be trying to avoid its responsibilities. People tend to be very loyal to companies they believe to be good to them and I think Toyota, now swimming in profit, might be getting a bit arrogant and taking advantage of this. We'll see.

Let me throw in this consideration. There has been some contention above that if a synthetic oil is used, no sludge will develop and you have disagreed. This is a classic case of the two sides not defining what they are discussing.

IF the lubricant is a true synthetic lubricant such as SynLube, Redline or Amsoil, sludge will not be an issue. These are true synthetic lubes. They have a much greater ability to tolerate heat and to release heat once away from the heat source. I don't think you will find any case of sludge when these oils are used.

Other oils, marketed as 'synthetics' like Castrol Syntec and others by Pennzoil and Quaker State to name a few are petroleum products based on Group III base oil. In my view, the marketing of these products amounts to a hoax where the marketers make a large profit selling the consumer something different than he thinks he's buying. People who bought these oils may indeed be among those you have heard from.


very true Houckster, not all "synthetics" are synthetic. Mobil lost that case years ago to Castrol.

Get true PAO synthetic oil, do your proper maintenance, drive your car further than the grocery store and faster than 60Kmh on occasion and you will not have sludge problems.
I believe the issue of falsely labelling certain oils with "synthetic" may very well be one of many causal factors in sludge reports.
The real causes of the Toyota specific issue are still unknown, and there has been a tremendous amount of speculation about it over the years.
I disagree with Charlene Blake's narrow focussed assessment of the sludge problem.
She blames Toyota exclusively, where in fact the issue is a complex one with any number of possibilities.
Her frequent appearances on the net are characterized by generalities and politicized rhetoric which appear to be thinly veiled attempts to raise alarm by innuendo and inference.
When pressed for facts and verification, she craftily avoids these challenges, and when she does respond, it's always with more alarmist rhetoric.
The absence of factual and verifiable evidence in any of her remarks is conspicuous; it certainly doesn't point to credibility.
While I hesitate to use the term 'lies' in describing much of the rhetoric she liberally dispenses, I must say it seems she does take some pretty wild liberties with the truth!!
Silverfox from Ontario, Canada:

Interesting enough, the person who has been most vocal against the "Toyota Owners Unite for Resolution: Toyota Engine Oil sludge" online petition with over 2,000 consumer signatures (and who has posted loudly against any formal consumer advocacy in this matter) is someone who also uses the words "speculation, rhetoric; thinly veiled, alarmist; and innuendo and inference" in so many of his posts.

FACTS, FACTS, and MORE FACTS:

1) MILLIONS of Toyota and Lexus vehicle owners are affected by the premature demise of their engines due to ENGINE OIL SLUDGE.
2) The problem has been recorded online for YEARS by Toyota and Lexus owners with very low mileage
3) I carried on after several very vocal Toyota owners TRIED to get something done about this. My initial postings resulted in over 6,000 follow-up postings at Edmund's Town Hall (now CarSpace.com). Edmund's banned me from posting when an Ontario "regular" there who uses the same words as the above poster filed complaints---multiple ones. Seems someone was as the "gate" to make sure this issue did not result in a consumer backlash on Edmund's Town Hall.
4) The above did NOT work. This "cat" got out of the "bag." Thousands and thousands of Toyota owners assembled online in the now defunct "The Complaint Station for Toyota" and "Cartrackers.com" Toyota forum. You see, HACKERS made sure those sites did NOT stay up any longer. After all, TCS had over 10,000 postings on Toyota and Lexus engine oil sludge and the Toyota section of that site was THE MOST POPULAR POSTING SITE on the entire web site at the time of the FATAL HACKING! Moderators admitted to the sabotage going on there. Yes, quite the story!
5) Thousands of attorneys were consulted on behalf of individual Toyota owners who were FED UP with this unbelievable injustice! Then, a class action lawsuit resulted....even a Toyota owner attorney began to gather evidence in Idaho when she was callously brushed aside by Toyota when her Sienna developed sludge.
6) Toyota came out with the "Special Adjustment Policy" or "SPA" (sounds like a place to relax, doesn't it?) in February of 2002.
7) Very angry Toyota owners spoke out in Automotive News (a well-respected AUTO TRADE MAGAZINE) and told their horror stories.
8) Toyota came out with the "Customer Support Program for Engine Oil Gelation in April of 2002. Toyota PROMISED to repair or replace engines in the sludge-affected vehicles when satisfactory maintenance could be shown! Why, Toyota spokespeople said that the oil change receipts weren't that important and that only one per year was needed to prove maintenance.
9) I was interviewed and the subject of an article in May of 2002 in Automotive News magazine about how the web is used for AUTO CONSUMER ADVOCACY.
9) Mr. Bruce C. Ertmann at Toyota Motor Sales flew out to my area at the same time and met with me at my local Toyota dealership. He said he would be willing to get me another Toyota or another automaker's vehicle. He really didn't want to hear about the thousands upon thousands of other Toyota owners. However he did meet QUICKLY with a Highlander owner in Reston and PURCHASED BACK his vehicle with 12,000 miles on the odometer and SLUDGE at just one year old!!
10) Very soon after, Toyota owners began to report online and to me that Toyota WAS NOT HONORING ITS OWN PROGRAM for engine oil sludge. Though it stated it would repair and replace engines, the owners reported that it would not and "slammed the door shut" in their faces. This was documented time and time again.
11) I decided in March of 2003, one FULL YEAR after the CSP came out, to create an online Toyota petition for engine oil sludge victims. I wanted DATA to support the fact that Toyota owners were not being treated as Toyota says they were going to be and the fact that Toyota engine sludge was occurring in MORE than just the vehicles listed by Toyota CSP. I wanted to know what others were experiencing. Many Toyota owners report failed emissions testing and ABNORMAL engine oil analysis results (including excessive fuel in the oil, rapid TBN decrease, high silicon levels, and high nitration levels).
12) My petition began to be sabotaged immediately by someone using the same language the above poster uses, coincidentally. It was clear that someone did not want the DATA to come forth!
13) A nationwide CLASS ACTION LAWSUIT was filed after the CSP because Toyota owners were not happy about Toyota's resolution. This class action lawsuit was subsequently SETTLED QUIETLY BY TOYOTA!
14) The petition entries continue to confirm that Toyota dealerships are denying CSP claims and that it is not replacing the engines as promised.
15) The petition confirms that Toyota sludge CONTINUES in the newer models and some 2003-2006 owners are NOT HAPPY!
16) Toyota still has not resolved this problem for thousands who have been affected by engine oil sludge!

I will take the challenge of debating you on this issue! Show PROOF that the above 16 items are not FACT!

This is good 'ole grassroots auto consumer organizing. Seems some companies will go to ANY EXTREME to stop the same! Just how far will Toyota go online to see to it that the subject of Toyota and Lexus engine oil sludge is buried?

Your turn....

Charlene Blake
charleneblake2011@gmail.com
Toyota Owners Unite for Resolution: Engine Oil Sludge
Last edited by charleneblake
quote:
Originally posted by silverfox:
I believe the issue of falsely labelling certain oils with "synthetic" may very well be one of many causal factors in sludge reports. (clipped the rest...)


One other thing, Silverfox...for YEARS there has been an attempt made to distract away from the possibility of an INHERENT TOYOTA ENGINE PROBLEM by those who insist that synthetic oil will solve the problem.

FACT!! There is ample evidence from Toyota and Lexus owners that synthetic oil WILL NOT SOLVE THE TOYOTA SLUDGE PROBLEM! Owners who have BOTH properly maintained their vehicles AND used true synthetic oils have been victims of Toyota engine oil sludge. Synthetic oil did NOT prevent the sludge development.

The people who continue to spread this propaganda are doing so intentionally in order to continue to BLAME the OIL if they can't blame the owner!

Toyota refuses to acknowledge its TRUE ROLE in the sludge matter. It refuses to take responsibility.

Charlene Blake
cblake@erols.com
charleneblake@cox.net
Toyota Owners Unite for Resolution: Toyota Engine Oil Sludge

P.S. When I first posted about Toyota engine oil sludge on the Noria site some years ago, I waited to see how long it would take a "Toyota protector" to surface. It would be interesting for someone to research this and do an analysis of the postings. Seems great lengths are taken to track anyone who posts about a WIDESPREAD AND KNOWN ISSUE in Toyota and Lexus vehicles. PR control is alive and well right now at this company. Corporate intervention comes in the form of "control" of CGM (customer-generated media). Seems that CONTROL is easier than RESPONSIBILITY! Comforting thought...
Ottobooster, my reply to Silverfox will give you the FACTS that you require. Here they are:

(Interesting enough, the person who has been most vocal against the "Toyota Owners Unite for Resolution: Toyota Engine Oil sludge" online petition with over 2,000 consumer signatures (and who has posted loudly against any formal consumer advocacy in this matter) is someone who also uses the words "speculation, rhetoric; thinly veiled, alarmist; and innuendo and inference" in so many of his posts.)

FACTS, FACTS, and MORE FACTS:

1) MILLIONS of Toyota and Lexus vehicle owners are affected by the premature demise of their engines due to ENGINE OIL SLUDGE.
2) The problem has been recorded online for YEARS by Toyota and Lexus owners with very low mileage
3) I carried on after several very vocal Toyota owners TRIED to get something done about this. My initial postings resulted in over 6,000 follow-up postings at Edmund's Town Hall (now CarSpace.com). Edmund's banned me from posting when an Ontario "regular" there who uses the same words as the above poster filed complaints---multiple ones. Seems someone was as the "gate" to make sure this issue did not result in a consumer backlash on Edmund's Town Hall.
4) The above did NOT work. This "cat" got out of the "bag." Thousands and thousands of Toyota owners assembled online in the now defunct "The Complaint Station for Toyota" and "Cartrackers.com" Toyota forum. You see, HACKERS made sure those sites did NOT stay up any longer. After all, TCS had over 10,000 postings on Toyota and Lexus engine oil sludge and the Toyota section of that site was THE MOST POPULAR POSTING SITE on the entire web site at the time of the FATAL HACKING! Moderators admitted to the sabotage going on there. Yes, quite the story!
5) Thousands of attorneys were consulted on behalf of individual Toyota owners who were FED UP with this unbelievable injustice! Then, a class action lawsuit resulted....even a Toyota owner attorney began to gather evidence in Idaho when she was callously brushed aside by Toyota when her Sienna developed sludge.
6) Toyota came out with the "Special Adjustment Policy" or "SPA" (sounds like a place to relax, doesn't it?) in February of 2002.
7) Very angry Toyota owners spoke out in Automotive News (a well-respected AUTO TRADE MAGAZINE) and told their horror stories.
8) Toyota came out with the "Customer Support Program for Engine Oil Gelation in April of 2002. Toyota PROMISED to repair or replace engines in the sludge-affected vehicles when satisfactory maintenance could be shown! Why, Toyota spokespeople said that the oil change receipts weren't that important and that only one per year was needed to prove maintenance.
9) I was interviewed and the subject of an article in May of 2002 in Automotive News magazine about how the web is used for AUTO CONSUMER ADVOCACY.
9) Mr. Bruce C. Ertmann at Toyota Motor Sales flew out to my area at the same time and met with me at my local Toyota dealership. He said he would be willing to get me another Toyota or another automaker's vehicle. He really didn't want to hear about the thousands upon thousands of other Toyota owners. However he did meet QUICKLY with a Highlander owner in Reston and PURCHASED BACK his vehicle with 12,000 miles on the odometer and SLUDGE at just one year old!!
10) Very soon after, Toyota owners began to report online and to me that Toyota WAS NOT HONORING ITS OWN PROGRAM for engine oil sludge. Though it stated it would repair and replace engines, the owners reported that it would not and "slammed the door shut" in their faces. This was documented time and time again.
11) I decided in March of 2003, one FULL YEAR after the CSP came out, to create an online Toyota petition for engine oil sludge victims. I wanted DATA to support the fact that Toyota owners were not being treated as Toyota says they were going to be and the fact that Toyota engine sludge was occurring in MORE than just the vehicles listed by Toyota CSP. I wanted to know what others were experiencing. Many Toyota owners report failed emissions testing and ABNORMAL engine oil analysis results (including excessive fuel in the oil, rapid TBN decrease, high silicon levels, and high nitration levels).
12) My petition began to be sabotaged immediately by someone using the same language the above poster uses, coincidentally. It was clear that someone did not want the DATA to come forth!
13) A nationwide CLASS ACTION LAWSUIT was filed after the CSP because Toyota owners were not happy about Toyota's resolution. This class action lawsuit was subsequently SETTLED QUIETLY BY TOYOTA!
14) The petition entries continue to confirm that Toyota dealerships are denying CSP claims and that it is not replacing the engines as promised.
15) The petition confirms that Toyota sludge CONTINUES in the newer models and some 2003-2006 owners are NOT HAPPY!
16) Toyota still has not resolved this problem for thousands who have been affected by engine oil sludge!

I will take the challenge of debating you on this issue! Show PROOF that the above 16 items are not FACT!

This is good 'ole grassroots auto consumer organizing. Seems some companies will go to ANY EXTREME to stop the same! Just how far will Toyota go online to see to it that the subject of Toyota and Lexus engine oil sludge is buried?

Your turn....

Charlene Blake
cblake@erols.com
charleneblake@cox.net
Toyota Owners Unite for Resolution: Engine Oil Sludge

P.S. Synthetic oil has NOT prevented the development of Toyota engine oil sludge in properly-maintained vehicles. It is a red herring to blame either the oil or the owner for this problem in a Toyota or Lexus. It would seem that Toyota and the "Toyota-protector" posters are just fine with the distraction away from TOYOTA, the company, though.
quote:
Originally posted by scotchnsoda:
I quoted Charlene Blake's post, above, and now would like to comment on it and others by the same author in this forum:

First question needing to be addressed is "Why is Toyota being singled out and badmouthed over any other carmaker?"
Are there no other auto manufacturers in this world?
Is Toyota the only auto manufacturer guilty of the sins alleged?
Why (and how) is Toyota any different than any of the the others? (clipped rest...)


Toyota and Lexus are "being singled out" because THEY have a MAJOR engine oil sludge problem that has NOT been properly resolved! THESE OWNERS are not interested in what other automakers are doing as they don't own these makes.

Yes, there are other automakers. What do THEY have to do with this TOYOTA and LEXUS ENGINE OIL SLUDGE PROBLEM? How will the problems in the other makes help THEM?

Let's remember that it has been TOYOTA telling TV audiences (and now online audiences) that its vehicles are above the rest, correct? Why are we now going to surmise that Toyota vehicles are "like the rest?" Toyota has made claims about the quality of its vehicles; it has not backed up these claims for the affected Toyota and Lexus sludge victims.

The distracting away from the REAL ISSUE has been going on for YEARS. If one thing is quite clear, it is that Toyota never planned to let its valued vehicle owners know the TRUTH about how engine oil sludge develops in its engines. It wishes to lay the blame with either the owners or the oil or the maintenance facility.

NOTHING has changed since the CSP was implemented by Toyota itself or since the Toyota and Lexus owners brought and settled the class action lawsuit. Toyota sludge is alive and well!

Charlene Blake
cblake@erols.com
charlene.blake@cox.net
Toyota Owners Unite for Resolution: Engine Oil Sludge
http://www.petitiononline.com/TMC2003/petition.html
quote:
Originally posted by Steve L:
The problem here is simple, and Toyota has identified it. It is simply owners who do not use good oils and go too long between changes.

Sludge is ONLY formed when using PETROLEUM oils. At high heat, petroleum oil forms sludge.

Solution? Use ONLY a PREMIUM 100% synthetic Oil. No more sludge.

As far as the other ideas suggested like changing to a cooler thermostat, etc. DON'T DO IT!! That engine and computer is designed to run at a certain temperature. And, putting in a cooler thermostat can actually cause your engine to run hotter, just like having no thermostat.

A thermostat is designed to keep the coolant in the radiator for a certain period of time. Then at the desired temp it opens and the coolant flows. Opening too soon due to a lower temperature can cause the coolant to flow out too quickly and not have the time in front of the airflow needed to cool.

Every engine is designed to run at a specific temperature.


Steve:

Paragraphs #1, #2, and #3 are totally incorrect!

For Ottobooster, Silverfox, and others, please cite the evidence that confirms these statements. The TRUTH must be told, not covered up!

Charlene Blake
cblake@erols.com
charleneblake@cox.net
Toyota Owners Unite for Resolution: Engine Oil Sludge
http://www.petitiononline.com/TMC2003/petition.html
Scotchnsoda, maybe you have had a few two many?

I am not a "prolific spammer" by any stretch. I am a VERY involved auto consumer advocate and have been for over a decade now. I think the auto consumer should receive JUSTICE when applicable. I don't mind speaking out about that. Nothing could be more true than in the Toyota and Lexus engine oil sludge matter.

I see that you, Ottobooster, and Steve came here expressly to respond to my postings...out of the blue? Interesting...

I am happy to continue the dialogue about Toyota and Lexus engine oil sludge and the horrible consequences of the same for the owners of these vehicles.

I am not going to be distracted about the oil or maintenance issues because the are NOT the most important factor in this case. The ENGINE is the most important factor and I have yet to see Toyota provide the owners with PROOF that this engine treats motor oil well! Indeed, I have plenty of proof to the contrary though, beginning with my own engine oil analyses.

Alas, no one at Toyota will recognize what these sludge-affected Toyota and Lexus engines do to the innocent oil or the innocent vehicle owner!

Charlene Blake
cblake@erols.com
charleneblake@cox.net

Toyota Owners Unite for Resolution: Engine Oil Sludge
http://www.petitiononline.com/TMC2003/petition.html
quote:
Originally posted by silverfox:
I believe the issue of falsely labelling certain oils with "synthetic" may very well be one of many causal factors in sludge reports.
The real causes of the Toyota specific issue are still unknown, and there has been a tremendous amount of speculation about it over the years.
I disagree with Charlene Blake's narrow focussed assessment of the sludge problem.
She blames Toyota exclusively, where in fact the issue is a complex one with any number of possibilities.
Her frequent appearances on the net are characterized by generalities and politicized rhetoric which appear to be thinly veiled attempts to raise alarm by innuendo and inference.
When pressed for facts and verification, she craftily avoids these challenges, and when she does respond, it's always with more alarmist rhetoric.
The absence of factual and verifiable evidence in any of her remarks is conspicuous; it certainly doesn't point to credibility.
While I hesitate to use the term 'lies' in describing much of the rhetoric she liberally dispenses, I must say it seems she does take some pretty wild liberties with the truth!!


Having read her long winded responses (how many does she need to make a point???)there is absolutely no doubt she is LYING through her teeth! (
I originally hesitated to use that word, but what she has written cannot be considered anything but LIES!!
"Millions of sludge affected Toyotas??"
Yikes!!
There's an exaggeration which goes far beyond imagination--it falls into a wildly delusional category for sure.
It's just not true--so far from the truth as to be unbelievable.
Why anyone would go so far beyond reality raises serious questions as to someone's sanity!!

Next, she infers there are "Many low mileage Toyotas that were sludged"!!
Another outragious embellishment--not quite a lie but surely an irresponsible distortion of fact. (A lie, but by another definition perhaps??)
The only low mileage sludged engines came about as a result of neglected oil changes--and that's a documented fact!!
I'll wager this contention is based solely on a few posts or emails she may have received--but no real documented and verified proff from anyone!
One can easily show how distorted and embellished the rest of her laims are, but why bother?
When someone predicates a response with outright
lies, the rest of what is said becomes tainted.
Charlene Blake has proven every one of my earlier contentions with such blatent and illogical LIES!!
Last edited by silverfox
quote:
Originally posted by silverfox:
(snipped first part) Next, she infers there are "Many low mileage Toyotas that were sludged"!!
Another outragious embellishment--not quite a lie but surely an irresponsible distortion of fact. (A lie, but by another definition perhaps??)
The only low mileage sludged engines came about as a result of neglected oil changes--and that's a documented fact!!(last part snipped)


Silverfox, please cite how you know that every low mileage sludged engine came about as a result of neglected oil changes! Have you personally noted all of them at Toyota? Do you work for Toyota or have privilege to see such documentation? Interesting that you make a global claim and yet you are not affiliated with Toyota at all! Wow!

Here is a FACT for you:

Toyota is selectively documenting just what it wants to! Do you suppose for a minute that Toyota has PROPERLY DOCUMENTED the occurrence of Toyota engine oil sludge in the wake of proper maintenance? No! It has gone to great lengths to avoid doing so.

You and Toyota know full well what kind of "selective documentation" is going on there! Toyota wants to have it down on paper that this condition is just caused by improper maintenance. This is simply NOT the case. You now it; Toyota knows it. Remember, I've spoken to Toyota owners over the course of seven years now. That's right...I stumbled on Toyota engine oil sludge back in late 2000 when researching information about BRAKE PROBLEMS (and susequently brake failure) in the Toyota Sienna minivan.

If you want to PROPERLY DEBATE this matter, please come out of the shadows to OPENLY discuss this matter. I'm happy to participate when you do. I do not resort to your kind of attack-posting, though. Be prepared to be civil in your dialogue; leave your emotion out of it.

Have you noted the new entries in my petition? The 2003 models and beyond are showing up there now. Other models (not included in the CSP) are showing up, too. Toyota has some explaining to do. Oh...let me guess...it is *only owners of CERTAIN MODELS* that do not properly maintain their vehicles????

Charlene Blake
cblake@erols.com
Toyota Owners Unite for Resolution: Engine Oil Sludge
http://www.petitiononline.com/TMC2003/petition.html
RESPONSE TO CHARLENE BLAKE'S LIES, LIES, AND MORE LIES!!

This is in response to Ms. Blake's totally corrupt previous entry:
Ms. Blake, you must have a serious hate against Toyota for you to tell outragious untruths like you did in this forum!!
Otherwise how on earth can anyone rationalize going so far out on a shaky limb like that??
I note in your last response that you avoided any discussion of your first malicious accusations--your first (of many) bald faced lies---you know the one you conveniently avoided---about those "millions of sludged Toyotas". Time to fess up now!!
No, you don't even blink after being caught in that one, then you immediately go on the offensive and DEMAND proof that those "Low mileage Toyotas" got sludged because of NEGLECT!!
Well, you made the claim in the first place, therefore the burden of any proof is yours, no one elses!!
You have no rights to DEMAND anything, because you're already way behind in honesty points !!
Oh yeah, we know that you'll probably "say" you've received complaints, and we're pretty sure you'll even trot out some cutpasted "complaints" for "effect".
But all the usual hype and bluster you always dispense aside, all you've got is just hype and bluster!!
Sorry, but ZERO PLUS ZERO EQUALS ZERO!!
You lied--not once, but many times in your rush to judgement here--and it has cast huge doubts on any integrity whatsoever in your case.
Lies won't cut it lady. You made a huge mistake!
Cut pasted (or fabricated perhaps??)horror stories aren't proof either, so don't put your foot any further into your mouth!!
The sad part is that you don't have the guts to at least apologize for your dishonesty!!
Your entire case is shot full of holes with lies and distortions, and there's no one to blame but you!!
Shame on you!!



quote:
Originally posted by silverfox:
quote:
Originally posted by silverfox:
I believe the issue of falsely labelling certain oils with "synthetic" may very well be one of many causal factors in sludge reports.
The real causes of the Toyota specific issue are still unknown, and there has been a tremendous amount of speculation about it over the years.
I disagree with Charlene Blake's narrow focussed assessment of the sludge problem.
She blames Toyota exclusively, where in fact the issue is a complex one with any number of possibilities.
Her frequent appearances on the net are characterized by generalities and politicized rhetoric which appear to be thinly veiled attempts to raise alarm by innuendo and inference.
When pressed for facts and verification, she craftily avoids these challenges, and when she does respond, it's always with more alarmist rhetoric.
The absence of factual and verifiable evidence in any of her remarks is conspicuous; it certainly doesn't point to credibility.
While I hesitate to use the term 'lies' in describing much of the rhetoric she liberally dispenses, I must say it seems she does take some pretty wild liberties with the truth!!


Having read her long winded responses (how many does she need to make a point???)there is absolutely no doubt she is LYING through her teeth! (
I originally hesitated to use that word, but what she has written cannot be considered anything but LIES!!
"Millions of sludge affected Toyotas??"
Yikes!!
There's an exaggeration which goes far beyond imagination--it falls into a wildly delusional category for sure.
It's just not true--so far from the truth as to be unbelievable.
Why anyone would go so far beyond reality raises serious questions as to someone's sanity!!

Next, she infers there are "Many low mileage Toyotas that were sludged"!!
Another outragious embellishment--not quite a lie but surely an irresponsible distortion of fact. (A lie, but by another definition perhaps??)
The only low mileage sludged engines came about as a result of neglected oil changes--and that's a documented fact!!
I'll wager this contention is based solely on a few posts or emails she may have received--but no real documented and verified proff from anyone!
One can easily show how distorted and embellished the rest of her laims are, but why bother?
When someone predicates a response with outright
lies, the rest of what is said becomes tainted.
Charlene Blake has proven every one of my earlier contentions with such blatent and illogical LIES!!
Silverfox,
I suggest that you speak with Bruce C. Ertmann at Toyota. He is the one that promised to send out the 3.3 million Toyota/Lexus owner letters to those affected in the engine oil sludge case.

Sure, we know that on the first round of letters he stopped them from being sent out. The first letter was a very customer-demeaning letter that shamed the owners of these iron-clad vehicles. Then, when the second round of letters began, I learned that many Toyota owners still never got their letter! Imagine that...evidence of a problem...and no notification from Toyota! I guess now you understand why these owners all signed on to a class action lawsuit.

There are 3.3 million Toyota and Lexus vehicles included in the sludge campaign initiated by Toyota.

Unfortunately, that is NOT the true number because other models and model years are affected. Toyota has yet to acknowledge this fact.

Charlene Blake
cblake@erols.com
Toyota Owners Unite for Resolution: Engine Oil Sludge
http://www.petitiononline.com/TMC2003/petition.html
RESPONSE TO MORE LIES--(AND SOME HASTY BACKPEDALLING??)--BY CHARLENE BLAKE.......


Charlene said:--"Millions of Toyota and Lexus owners are affected by the premature demise of their engines due to engine sludge!!"

Where are the "affected millions" Charlene??

You know, the millions of owners you "implied" whose engines "demised?"

Or are you now changing the story to try and deflect your lie by suggesting these "millions" of owners got a letter from Toyota and that somehow "affected" them and caused their engine to "demise?"

Truth be told, the only one I know of now who is "affected" is yourself--although I'm not sure with what---(perhaps a genetic predisposition)---and I know for sure there's no cure.
Sadly, when your lies become that compulsive, I don't think there's much hope for any change in the condition. Bruce Ertmann would probably agree!!

Your feeble backpedal is a day late and a dollar short!!

You just plain lied--and got caught!



Silverfox,
I suggest that you speak with Bruce C. Ertmann at Toyota. He is the one that promised to send out the 3.3 million Toyota/Lexus owner letters to those affected in the engine oil sludge case.

Sure, we know that on the first round of letters he stopped them from being sent out. The first letter was a very customer-demeaning letter that shamed the owners of these iron-clad vehicles. Then, when the second round of letters began, I learned that many Toyota owners still never got their letter! Imagine that...evidence of a problem...and no notification from Toyota! I guess now you understand why these owners all signed on to a class action lawsuit.

There are 3.3 million Toyota and Lexus vehicles included in the sludge campaign initiated by Toyota.

Unfortunately, that is NOT the true number because other models and model years are affected. Toyota has yet to acknowledge this fact.

Charlene Blake
cblake@erols.com
Toyota Owners Unite for Resolution: Engine Oil Sludge
http://www.petitiononline.com/TMC2003/petition.html[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Originally posted by silverfox:
RESPONSE TO MORE LIES--(AND SOME HASTY BACKPEDALLING??)--BY CHARLENE BLAKE.......


Charlene said:--"Millions of Toyota and Lexus owners are affected by the premature demise of their engines due to engine sludge!!"

Where are the "affected millions" Charlene??

You know, the millions of owners you "implied" whose engines "demised?"

Or are you now changing the story to try and deflect your lie by suggesting these "millions" of owners got a letter from Toyota and that somehow "affected" them and caused their engine to "demise?"

Truth be told, the only one I know of now who is "affected" is yourself--although I'm not sure with what---(perhaps a genetic predisposition)---and I know for sure there's no cure.
Sadly, when your lies become that compulsive, I don't think there's much hope for any change in the condition. Bruce Ertmann would probably agree!!

Your feeble backpedal is a day late and a dollar short!!

You just plain lied--and got caught!



PS.

Next lie;....Charlene then adds this..." I
guess now you understand why these owners all signed on to a class action lawsuit."



So Charlene... are you now saying those "millions" of owners ALL signed on to a class action law suit???"

Sheesh---It gets better by the hour here!!
So THAT's where the "millions" of owners went.
I viewed that "petition" and naturally Charlene's name is the first one on it.

In the narraratives of each post many people said nothing of sludge! They complain of "check engine lights" and rough idle, etc.

And, many of these people bought the car used but claim proper maintenence.

AND, the best part is, NOT ONE specified the use of 100% premium synthetic oil since day one!

The point Charlene STILL cannot comprehend, is that is PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE to get sludge when using 100% premium synthetic oil. Charlene, do you know what IMPOSSIBLE means?

Many of those people on that petition who have had engine failure were those who bought the cheap oil at the cheap oil change place. And, many knew of a problem and drove the car anyway.

I stand firm that sludge is an OIL problem, and NOT an engine problem. Sludge comes primarily from cheap PETROLEUM oil, and lack of proper maintenence.

I have an extensive mechanical background. I have built and raced performance cars as well. I have seen, first hand, the difference between using petroleum oils and synthetics. No comparison.

Cheap customers have sludge because cheap customers buy cheap oil. This is reality.
RESPONSE TO STEVE L.

Thanks for your common sense info.
Your advice for synthetic oil is a big part of a myriad of issues re sludge development.
I found this site out of curiosity because I have a Toyota product (which, like most owners,I'm quite happy with) and was just surfing.
When "paparazzi wannabe" Charlene Blake jumped in with that boatload of hype--mostly smoke and mirrors BTW--I decided to expose what was essentially a pile of lies and misleading inference.
I also did a google search on this person and found thousands of hits on literally every auto related site on the net!
It seems we're dealing with a person who, for Lord knows what reasons, has made a career out of bashing Toyota!
All of her efforts have a common denominator---mostly alarmist hype with little substance and absolutely no authenticity.
I also looked at her much touted "petition". What a joke that is--it's been active (if you consider active as barely alive!)for over 5 years and has accumulated an underwhelming number of around 2000 signatures!
I also noted a great many blank spaces throughout the thing--no signature at all yet counted as one!
That petition is mostly futility however, because it appears there's no way to verify any signatures as legitimate, and because there are no checks and balances to determine legitimacy--apparently a single person can sign as many times as desired!
If Blake has a legitimate beef with Toyota, I would respect that if she was the least bit honest in her condemnations, but she chooses to use cheap rhetoric and shoddy political hype in her obssession over that beef.
But she isn't being honest, and I'll challenge her every time she opens up with another one of her ill gotten manifestos---on principle!!
quote:
MILLIONS of Toyota and Lexus vehicle owners are affected by the premature demise of their engines due to ENGINE OIL SLUDGE.

Very dramatic overstatement.
quote:
that is PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE to get sludge when using 100% premium synthetic oil.

Not true. PAO and esters will degrade, just at a much slower rate. The AO and dispersant additives in the oil are another important factor. Expensive oils (syn) will tend to have better/more AO/ dispersant than cheap dino oil.
The degredation can be easily seen on the oxidation and nitration values in a UOA.
Tempest,

That was the uneducated response I was waiting for. You must be Charlene Blake's husband, or mechanic.

You obviously DID NOT read EXACTLY what I wrote. I will spell it out for you one more time.

First, sludge is a PETROLEUM by-product. Therfore, if you use a TRUE synthetic, you absolutely CANNOT get sludge.

Notice all of my posts clearly specified "100% Premium synthetic oil". This would be a GROUP 4 oil which uses a CHEMICALLY ENGINEERED synthetic base stock for its base oil. This oil does NOT contain ANYTHING petroleum. NOTHING.

Unlike the GROUP 3 [wannabe] synthetic oils that use mineral oil for a base stock. This is your low end "synthetic" and "synthetic blend" oil like the stuff you buy with the Wal-mart brand or other store brand, etc. This is NOT a TRUE synthetic. This is the oil you are speaking about and is NOT the oil I was speaking about. This is NOT a "100% Premium synthetic oil".

I hope this clears up your confusion.

Steve


>>

-----Original Message-----
From: "forums.noria.com"
Sent: Dec 3, 2007 2:32 PM
To: Steve L
Subject: New Reply by Tempest - Re: "Toyota Engine Oil Sludge/Failure"


quote:
MILLIONS of Toyota and Lexus vehicle owners are affected by the premature demise of their engines due to ENGINE OIL SLUDGE.


Very dramatic overstatement.

quote:
that is PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE to get sludge when using 100% premium synthetic oil.

Not true. PAO and esters will degrade, just at a much slower rate. The AO and dispersant additives in the oil are another important factor. Expensive oils (syn) will tend to have better/more AO/ dispersant than cheap dino oil.
The degredation can be easily seen on the oxidation and nitration values in a UOA. You can view the message here https://forums.noria.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&m=305601547&f=616604995--> A new post from forums.noria.com > Message Boards > Car and Truck Lubrication!

Author Topic: Toyota Engine Oil Sludge/Failure
Tempest
Posted Mon December 03 2007 01:27 PM
quote:
MILLIONS of Toyota and Lexus vehicle owners are affected by the premature demise of their engines due to ENGINE OIL SLUDGE.


Very dramatic overstatement.

quote:
that is PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE to get sludge when using 100% premium synthetic oil.

Not true. PAO and esters will degrade, just at a much slower rate. The AO and dispersant additives in the oil are another important factor. Expensive oils (syn) will tend to have better/more AO/ dispersant than cheap dino oil.
The degredation can be easily seen on the oxidation and nitration values in a UOA.
Steve L,

Would you like to explain the oxidation and nitration of PAO/ester oils like Amsoil and Redline if sludge is impossible? How about oxidative thickening?

quote:
You must be Charlene Blake's husband, or mechanic.

You're funny.
quote:
Unlike older generation Group III stocks, which can have more than five percent aromatics, modern Group III stocks also undergo subsequent severe hydrofinishing after hydrocracking and hydroisomerization. Consequently, they have exceptional purity with aromatics levels of much less than one percent, resulting in high thermal and oxidative stability. On the other hand, PAO stability depends largely on residual olefin content, which can be present at significant levels - up to five percent. Even though PAOs have generally excellent oxidation stability, in many applications such as engine oils or high-temperature compressor oils, their performance is matched by modern, severely processed Group III base oils.

http://www.machinerylubrication.com/article_detail.asp?articleid=533
quote:
Oxidative, thermal and hydrolytic degradation will change the base oil's chemical and physical properties, which then alters the lubricant's performance properties.
One of the most common forms of base oil degradation is oxidation. It occurs when oxygen reacts with the lubricant's base oil, which is typically a hydrocarbon. When the oil becomes oxidized, some hydrocarbon molecules are transformed into acid and sludge,

http://www.machinerylubrication.com/article_printer_fri...y.asp?articleid=1010
Does PAO not contain Hydrocarbons?
Last edited by tempest
Hey guys---As much as your input as to some of the many possible sludge causes is greatly appreciated, an important issue here IMO is a challenge to Charlene Blake for the "dramatic overstatements" (as one of you put it so succinctly!)she makes here in her long standing campaign of misinformation re Toyota.

Her as yet unrepentent "lie" re "millions of 'demised' sludged engines" is so off the wall that it goes far beyond ludicrous.
It's agreed she was caught in another (of many) overstated accusations, so that in and of itself speaks to her habitual untruthfulness.

She then attempts to deflect from her lie by offering a Class Action Law Suit as support--but lies again when she implies (note the second syllable!) the Suit was signed by those "millions" of owners.
More characteristic untruthfulness---BTW, in this case she conveniently omits several facts re that Law Suit: (1) It was in Louisiana, and involved only one hundred "class interests"--people who were represented in the action; (2) Judgement in the Suit was no different than the SPA Toyota offered owners years ago; (3) There was no mechanical or design flaw identified--in fact the suit placed no blame whatsoever on either party; and (4) Louisiana is by far the most prolific Tort Litigation site in the country--even the National Law Society has admitted the situation there is tantamount to legalized extortion!!

So I guess what I'm trying to say here is to ask not to add more controversy to the issue than it deserves--and if there's something to take issue over, focus first on people like Blake who take malicious potshots at others, and continually misuse these forums with their "dramatic overstatements" !!

Her credo seems to be "It's not whether you win or lose, it's who you can find to blame".
I see a great deal of Charlene bashing going on here, I for one agree with her.
Up until recently I had the utmost confidence with toyota products. Like many on this site I believed the sludge problem was due to poor maintenance procedures. But I began hearing about Toyota's sludge issue from multiple sources.
Then something happened to make me see the light. My father in law owned a 2002 toyota sienna mini van. He became a victim of the toyota sludge problem.His engine had to be rebuilt with only 45,000 miles on it. It started rather suddenly when the engine would belch out huge amounts of white smoke upon starting the engine. Then his oil consumption went through the roof as in 1 quart every 1,000 miles or less! Toyota said the car was out of warranty and refused to do anything unless it was payed for. The problem became so bad my father in law relented and had them repair the engine. I am sure that totyota dealers across the country are doing what this dealer did to my father in law. This tactic would explain why the sludge issue "appears" to be a small problem according to toyota. But her is the best part. My father in law is religous about changing his oil. Oil and filter every 3,000 miles like clockwork.
Just a quick side note, as per consumer reports Toyota is no longer the best car maker with the fewest reported problems. They have slipped into third place. It is easy to assume that their sludge problem has played a role in this.
So "back yard mechanic" for one, agrees with Charlene Blake?
The "for one" part is significant--there aren't many who do!
That must mean "back yard mechanic" subscribes to dramatic overstatements, half truths, lying when everything else fails, and always blaming others for one's misfortunes! (Small wonder she gets bashed--if her remarks the slightest bit honest the sludge issue would be more credible!)
That said, "back yard mechanic's" support for what's wrong with Blake's manipulative tactics and the accomanying story seem right out of Blake's playbook!!
Coincidence perhaps??
Back yard mechanic, your father's story is not unique. I wish I could say it is. I have corresponded with too-many-to-count Toyota/Lexus owners and the stories all reverberate the truth! Toyota has a serious engine oil sludge issue. Period.

Silverfox, if your only defense is to bash the messenger of the unfortunate news, then I personally think that you have no valid rebuttal. I am not concerned one way or the other, though, as the truth speaks much louder than any defamatory posting by you. I'll not waste my time defending the truth; the Toyota engine oil sludge evidence is out there for all to research.

The fact remains that Toyota and Lexus owners who maintain their engines *better than recommended* are still seeing sludge build-up or worse...engine failure. You can claim that it isn't so and you can even claim as "Pilot13" did in the original Edmund's Town Hall posting that Toyota engine oil sludge is a HOAX created by me....but it will not change the FACTS or the history of this very serious vehicle problem.

I neither started the engine oil sludge problem nor will I finish it. Toyota is the one that did the former and will have to do the latter! All I do is chronicle what is happening to the Toyota /Lexus owners as reported to me or posted online. One doesn't have to be a rocket scientist to know why you might not like what is being said even if it is the truth. We do understand that the truth hurts in some cases. So be it.

I am on the side of "Back yard mechanic's" father. I am on the side of the innocent Toyota/Lexus owners who THOUGHT they purchased an iron-clad vehicle but found out otherwise. I am on the side of those who are demanding that they GET what they PAID FOR...a safe, reliable vehicle which holds its resale value over time. I am on the side of those who believe that their new vehicle warranty should be HONORED as written! I am on the side of those who have been treated unfairly by Toyota.

I am NOT on the side of someone protecting an automaker which thinks more about its bottom line than its own customers. I am NOT on the side of someone who is willing to discredit and defame an outspoken auto consumer advocate in order to attempt to prevent the TRUTH from being told. I am NOT on the side of someone who wishes to bash anyone who supports logical thinking in this matter.

The name-calling is not acceptable on this web site. The paranoia is way over the top, too. Am I alone in seeing this?

By the way, I can't be in New York and Virginia at the same time, can I? I work full-time, too, so how can I possibly be "Back yard mechanic?" OTOH, there are a disproportionate number of Toyota engine oil sludge-bashers from Ontario, Canada, INCLUDING "Pilot13"...the original HOAX-story poster!

Food for thought...I've done the research;-)

Charlene Blake
cblake@erols.com
Toyota Owners Unite for Resolution: Engine Oil Sludge
http://www.petitiononline.com/TMC2003/petition.html
RESPONSE TO CHARLENE BLAKE:

Yet gain, with trademark bluff and bluster laced with inference--coupled with a few subtle lies to bolster the inference--Charlene Blake, you're out in left field once more--COMPLETELY WRONG!!

I have never said anything about sludge being a hoax, nor am I an incarnation of someone else who may have said it. (Is this inference another form of your 'fire for effect' lies??)

On the contrary, I have already stated that engine sludge is a reality--many times.

Unlike you, however, I hold to the truth.

Like a multitude of knowledgeable and responsible individuals--many whom you have arrogantly dismissed and marginalized in similar fashion in your remarks to me--I KNOW engine sludge can occur for a multitude of reasons.

I also KNOW that sludge is (thankfully) a fairly rare occurence, and likely won't happen at all if certain fundamental tenets are adhered to.
These tenets involve modest attention to what is going on in one's engine, with a similarly modest degree of personal responsibility toward ensuring that attention is given.

I read through your comments in this forum--and to my amazement found them copied into an extraordinary number of other sites--hundreds in fact--and I decided to address what is essentially compendium of manipulative spin, plus more than a few serious untruths.

If, on the other hand, your expressed angst against Toyota hadn't been so blatantly dishonest, I wouldn't have done so.
If you aspire to genuine consumer advocacy you would be wise to stick to the truth.
Spin and outright dishonesty don't help any cause--ask your President about WMD in Iraq--you and Mr. Bush have much in common it seems.

You come across very clearly as one who has a compulsive personal vendetta and is willing to use whatever it takes--including outright lies--to convince others of the rightiousness of your case.

And you evidently have no conscience whatsoever in saying the things you say!

Either that or your objective is sparked by some form of monetary gain to dissuade as many people as possible from buying a Toyota product.


I came upon this site as a Toyota owner looking for info on buying another Toyota--which I intend to do in spite of your fatuous comments and illusions about doom and gloom, and those who challenge your outragious lies.

One more thing.
Insofar as anecdotal stories such as those by of "back yard mechanic", I take them for what they are--anecdotal, unverified, anonymous, unproven, and coupled with a follow on to your rhetoric, probably false!!
to Charlene, thanks for your response

To silverfox
The only person spreading lies and inuendos on this site seems to be you. Your only rebuttal to Charlene's claims and myself seems to be ad hominum arguments which carry no weight. I merely relay a personal experience which supports Charlene's claims and you get your panties in a bunch. Why is that anyway? You own Toyota stock?

Just for your own edification Toyota has put out several bulletins with regards to engines prone to sludge, thus far thay admit to 2 engines in particular. Maybe you should call them and tell them they are lying!

In addition, Amsoil also has a list of cars prone to sludge, and yes Toyota is on their list as well.Maybe they are lying to!

You can go to bob is the oil guy's website they have numerous discussion on the toyota sludge problem, guess they are lying too!

How amazing, you seem to be the only one smart enough to figure out everyone else is lying! And we we have your say so as proof!I guess everyone should come to you first and see if the problems we are having are real or if we are all just hallucinating. Thanks for clearing that up.
Sorry, you who call yourself "back yard mechanic", but you just tripped over your own loyalty to dishonesty, and completely ignored what is clearly evident in this forum

You have despicably granted credibility to:... LIES, DISTORTIONS, OUTRAGIOUS INFERENCES, AND RHETORICAL SPIN WHICH IS COMPLETELY UNTRUTHFUL!!

Charlene Blake--your hero--said, and I quote:--"Millions of Toyota owners are experiencing sludged engines".
Is this truthful...not!!

Charlene Blake also said, and I quote--:"Those millions of owners with sludged engines signed a class action lawsuit against Toyota".
Is this truthful..not!!

Charlene Blake has also said--and repeatedly alleged that Toyota has influenced various agencies to "block her advocacy efforts around the net everywhere".
Is this truthful...not!!

Charlene Blake accused me personally of being some other person who has waged some mythical campaign of harrassment against her for years.
Is this truthful..not!!

Charlene Blake has stated "she has corresponded with 'hundreds' of individuals who have experienced sludge, and has stated all of these stories are true and accurate",---when in fact it is very clear she personally has not investigated any of them, looked objectively at the facts, and can say with no reservation that each and every one is a genuine case of culpability by the automaker.
Is this truthful...not!!

I could continue with a multitude of other transgressions and self serving liberties Charlene Blake has taken with truth and integrity, but just those mentioned are sufficient to confirm a complete absence of believability in anything she says.


Charlene Blake has ignored a basic truth--"SPIN, PLUS MORE OF THE SAME = MORE SPIN".

Charlene Blake has absolutely NO RIGHT to criticize anyone, since she herself has a much larger character flaw than any of those she criticizes!!

The proof is there for everyone to see.

All of your altruistic manifestations can't change that!! :-)
Backyard mechanic, great writing and so absolutely true!

Silverfox, isn't your claim that I am Backyard mechanic outrageous? I wish I could write as well!

It is interesting to note that you and my Toyota-protecting nemesis also misspell the exact same words over and over! Weird coincidence, I guess?

This whole issue of Toyota/Lexus engine oil sludge really gets under your skin, doesn't it? Well, it gets under the affected Toyota and Lexus vehicle owners' skin, too!

They do NOT like the fact that their engines are failing emissions testing, operating sluggishly or failing to operate at all, throwing rods, or catching fire spontaneously! They are just as hopping mad as YOU!

Many of the these owners are just like Backyard mechanic's dad...bullied into giving in and paying for an engine that should have lasted far longer! I've heard the stories time and time again.

Let there be no mistake...some owners have been ORDERED off the car lot when they report sludge in the wake of regular (no...superior!) maintenance!

Toyota doesn't want to document sludge in the face of good maintenance. If it did this, its whole cover would be blown, wouldn't it?

Toyota has made it clear from the start that this is the SOLE RESPONSIBILITY of its very negligent vehicle owners! Read the first letter that went out to the owners if you don't believe me. The Toyota and Lexus owners were stunned by the finger-pointing!

Funny...by Toyota's own admission, it is just certain Toyota model (and model year) owners that do not properly maintain their vehicles. Wonder what makes all those negligent owners go for the same Toyota models?

Silverfox, the Toyota and Lexus owners have been mistreated...given a faulty engine and then blamed for the engine failure. This is simply not right. Auto consumers see that clearly.

BUT...if it makes you happy to spew your venom on me and/or those I stand for, then go for it! Surely the administrator will take note of it, though.

Charlene Blake
cblake@erols.com
Toyota Owners Unite for Resolution: Engine Oil Sludge
http://www.petitiononline.com/TMC2003/petition.html
Silverfox, I beg to differ. Backyard mechanic's posting had no spin whatsoever. He stated the facts of the matter.

There are almost 2400 signatories on my online Toyota engine oil sludge petition now. Remember...Toyota claimed that there were only 3,200 sludge victims from the beginning. How realistic is that number considering the fact that the equivalent of 75% of that number of owners has now gone online to register DISSATISFACTION with Toyota?

Logical reasoning, Silverfox...its all there. Illogical reasoning is using name-calling (no, libel!) as a defense. Do you suppose you are helping Toyota make amends to the vehicle owners? I represent over 2,000 of these owners by virtue of my petition alone. Will you now spew names at them, too? More importantly, will you continue to minimize the effect of this serious engine problem?

Charlene Blake
cblake@erols.com
Toyota Owners Unite for Resolution: Engine Oil Sludge
http://www.petitiononline.com/TMC2003/petition.html
I took the liberty of posting 2 articles about toyota sludge problem. First one is from 2002 the second is more recent, from 2005. There were some great pictures of Toyota sludged engines but they didn't paste over for some reason. Do a google search for "toyota sludge" You will find plenty more reading.
As for myself, I'm buying a Honda , They are number 1!

You've entered the Sludge Zone.
Toyota reverses position on sludge, read the news release dated 2/8/02.
Read the whole article.



Automotive News article 4/3/02 & 2/8/02

Did Toyota do the right thing.

This page and section started off somewhere in Jan. 01 when I was seeing and getting an increasing number of engines that had severe sludge build up internally. At that time all the blame was being placed on the owner with the reasoning that they were not taking care of the engine as Toyota suggested. I felt that with the shear number of vehicles affected that something else was at the root cause. In February 02 Toyota finally acknowledged the condition, without taking real blame for any engineering problems, and started to correct the affected engines. They had some conditions that had to be met but their Special Policy Adjustment was a good start. Now this week, April 3, 02, they finally showed their true corporate stance on the unfortunate problem. They have broadened the scope of the coverage, within the years and models affected, and they are due a well earned thumbs up for this effort to stand behind what I still believe is the best product on the market.

This seems affect mostly Avalon, Camry, Sienna, Highlander, Celica and most Lexus 300/RX series models with the model years after 1997 thru 2001. Toyota made a change in the engine design that actually attributed to the problem.

My biggest question is do I qualify? Here are the guidelines Toyota is using to establish the engines that are prone to having the sludge (gel) condition:

Camry 4 cyl. Produced 8/96 - 7/01

Camry 6 cyl. Produced 8/96 - 8/02

Solara 4 cyl. Produced 6/98 - 5/01

Solara 6 cyl. Produced 6/98 - 8/02

Sienna 6 cyl. Produced 7/97 - 6/02

Avalon 6 cyl. Produced 7/96 - 6/02

Celica 4 cyl. Produced 8/96 - 4/99

Highlander 6 cyl. Produced 11/00 - 8/02

If you look at the vehicle identification label on the left door or left door post you can find the date of manufacutre. It normally is one of the first things you can see on the upper left of the label (example 7/98 means it was made July, 1998).

The actual cause of the problem is an inability of the engine's crankcase ventilation system (PCV) to move the normal gases from the engine. When these gases stay longer in an hot engine it allows deposits to form on the metal parts of the engine. When enough deposits are present "Sludge" is formed. In my opinion the reduced flow of the PCV is related to the vehicle emissions. This presents a problem since to correct it may require Toyota to recertify the engines, come up with a solution acceptable to the EPA and then they still have to repair or assist in repairing the affected engines. The costs would be staggering but ignoring the problem, in so many of their best selling vehicles, may be worse in the long run. In the various articles I've listed below, if you want, you will learn more about the cause an effect.

The following topics are links to gather more information about what causes the condition. At this point this is for information only, if you have the condition please contact your local Toyota dealer.

I must again inform you that this site is in no way associated with Toyota Motor Company and any opinions are based on my 30 years of experience and knowledge.

Article from the AutoChannel.com
The Engine Oil Bible

My opinion.

Links to others with the problems (caution some of the statements are really unreasonable it's kind of like "have keyboard will travel")

How to prevent sludge.

I have a sludged engine, what can I do now.

Can the Engine be Cleaned?

Join the Sludge Club





Oil Sludge: an expensive but preventable disaster
Every year, more of my customers suffer through unnecessary and very expensive engine re-builds due to oil sludge. The causes are complex but sludge damage can be prevented.

The oil sludge problem is reaching epidemic proportions on many 1997 and newer cars, with the following cars greatly affected:

Audi - 1997-2004
Chrysler - 1998-2002
Dodge - 1998-2002
Hyundai - 1998-2004
Lexus - 1997-2003
Toyota - 1997-2003
SAAB - 1999-2003
Volkswagen - 1997-2004

What is oil sludge?
Oil sludge is the breakdown product of over-stressed oil in your engine.

Oil that is stressed by contaminants and oxidation-or has to work thousands of miles longer than it was designed to-will break down into a gel that sticks to your engine parts. As the sludge sticks, there is less good oil to circulate and do its protective job. This coating of gel also stores heat instead of releasing it which stresses the radiator and cooling system.

Although at first the motor oil level may appear OK, a sludgy engine is being damaged with EVERY stroke. Your engine may lose oil pressure, get terrible gas mileage, and other components might mysteriously fail such as timing belts, idle speed controls, and gaskets.

Sludge begins to appear in the oil pan and valve covers. Oil filler cap inspection as an indicator of sludge build-up is not conclusive, as normal engines can have a small amount of sludge and condensation present at this 'high point' of the crankcase.

Why is oil sludge affecting more cars?
My research and experience concludes that both environmental and financial pressures have combined to affect your oiling system. Here's how:

Environmental pressures:

In the struggle to pass tougher federal emissions specifications, car manufacturers have raised engine operating temperatures and increased exhaust gas recirculation (EGR). In 1996, tighter federal emissions standards were enacted. Fuel mixtures have to run leaner, and leaner mixtures cause higher combustion temperatures. When nitrogen in the air is raised to higher temperatures it is converted into new contaminant cocktails. By 1997, sludge is appearing as a major problem.
New "long-life" antifreeze was introduced in 1995 to reduce the amount of chemical pollution in our environment. But longer 100,000-mile radiator service intervals often leads drivers to neglect their cooling systems. Worn-out coolant takes on an electrical charge that chemically acts like acid on engine parts. Depleted coolant also results in higher engine temperatures.
Federal pressures for more fuel economy in cars and trucks led car manufacturers to design engines for lower viscosity motor oils. Lighter oils tend to break down faster under urban driving conditions.
Financial pressures:

Some manufacturers recommend oil change intervals longer than 3,000 miles to market their cars' quality or to appeal to buyers on a budget. Consumers, already paying on auto loans, are reluctant to spend money for maintenance and embrace these extended intervals.
Quick lube shops competing for your business cave into pressure for bargain oil changes. To cut costs, they might buy single weight oil in bulk or use recycled oil. They use cheaper, less durable oil filters. Low-wage, inexperienced technicians sometimes make servicing mistakes when trying to work faster.
A very short history of oil change intervals
With oil prices so high in the early 1970s, and with engine designs evolving, Mobil introduced the Mobil 1 synthetic oil for gasoline engines. At the time, Mobil was promoting 20- or 25,000-mile oil changes with synthetic products, but they soon backed down from this.

In the 1980s, Toyota came out with a 10,000-mile oil change policy, in part to brag about the quality of their cars but mostly to market low maintenance costs. After receiving thousands of warranty claims for engine repairs from angry customers worldwide, they backed off of this absurd recommendation and went back to 3,000 mile intervals.

Improvements in motor oil chemistry in the 1990s encouraged many car makers to promote long oil change intervals. The long intervals actually worked OK until 1996, with very few sludge-related engine failures reported and many happy customers driving up to 10,000 miles between changes. After 1996, tighter emissions standards added pressure to the oiling system, and problems appeared.

Now in the 2000s, oil sludge buildup and sludge-related engine failure is a costly and frustrating nightmare for many. What's going on?


Your car's oiling system is its lifeblood
The oiling system in an engine is similar to the vascular system in a human body. It must absorb and release toxins, transfer heat, and suspend harmful particles until they can be filtered out. Unlike the blood in your body, though, engine oil is not self-renewing and has a limit to how much stress it can safely handle before it needs to be removed and refreshed.

As your car is driven, oil is pumped under pressure from the oil pan up through the oil pump. The oil pump sends oil to the crankshaft and camshaft, and is squeezed into the tiny channels of the motor. The moving parts also splash oil onto other components in the crankcase, and finally it falls under gravity back into the oil pan. Meanwhile, about 20% of the oil flow is diverted to the oil filter for cleaning. On some engines, an external oil cooler is used to dissipate heat from the engine.

Motor oil has a complex chemical job to do (see below). While lubricating your engine's moving parts at high temperatures, motor oil carries combustion by-products, collects airborne contaminants from the air-intake system, and absorbs and releases small amounts of water from engine heating and cooling. Circulating motor oil also suspends acids that are formed by chemical reactions in the crankcase. Sometimes tiny leaks allow some fuel or coolant to creep into the oiling system.

How oil does its job
Motor oil is a refined base stock with chemical additives. These additives work to suspend contaminants, inhibit corrosion, coat metal parts, keep viscosity stable, and slow oxidation.

As you drive, the combustion process allows small amounts of unburned fuel to escape into the oiling system which causes oil contamination. Contaminants are handled by:

oil additives, which suspend and contain the contaminants to prevent damage to metal engine parts
the oil filter, which captures large particles that are suspended by the additives
the PCV system (positive crankcase ventilation) uses a vapor separator to capture the lighter, gaseous contaminants and recirculate them back to the combustion process while the heavier contaminants drain down into the oil pan. So not only is the PCV system an important emissions device, but it's also crucial to keeping your motor oil clean.
As contaminants build up, the oil base itself starts to oxidize and turns the familiar red-brown color of worn-out oil. If not changed promptly, your engine is irreversibly damaged by chemical reactions, heat, and friction.

What makes synthetic oil superior to conventional oil?
I recommend synthetic motor oil to all my customers to prevent sludge. Why?

Synthetic motor oil is made from a blend of mineral oil, natural gas, and special additives. Because this blend is extremely pure from the beginning, it can withstand more torture in your vehicle's engine.

Synthetic lubricants cost just slightly more than conventional oils, but offer the best engine protection because:

synthetics remain stable at high temperatures (conventional oils break down faster at today's higher engine temps)
synthetics remain fluid at very low temperatures (conventional oils thicken)
additive packages are formulated with special chemicals for top cleaning and anti-oxidant protection
Remember, you can switch to synthetics on any car regardless of age or previous motor oil. If your vehicle has been acting up, have your technician check for sludge.

So why don't all cars suffer from sludge?
Some car makers stay with the standard 3-month/3,000 mile oil change interval. Others, such as BMW's longer interval, rarely cause any problems. Why? Their new engine designs call for a 7 or 8 quart capacity, almost twice that of the average car—and they specify full synthetic motor oil.

In addition, some drivers protect their cars by ignoring the recommended longer interval and changing their motor oil every 3,000 miles. These drivers ask for high-quality oil and filters, and keep up with other maintenance schedules.

Remember—any car can suffer an oil sludge problem, and some manufacturers more than others due to various design differences. It's to your advantage to get a technician's advice on what interval your engine and driving habits REALLY requires, and take matters into your own hands!


Legal issues about sludge
Information is slow to emerge about why sludge damage is so widespread, probably due to automotive complexity and large liability issues involved. Reports are circulating that dealerships are reluctant to admit to similar problems with other customers.

Manufacturer warranties might refuse to cover oil sludge damage by blaming you, the customer, for poor maintenance habits or neglect—even if you can prove you changed the oil every 3,000 miles. Without warranty protection, engine replacements are $5,000-$10,000. SAAB, Toyota, VW, and a few other manufacturers have some limited coverage for sludge damage.

Make sure your oil change receipt has the mileage, VIN, and parts listed, and organize all maintenance documentation in a notebook.

Stay updated on your vehicle
Make sure that the manufacturers' corporate Customer Service office has your current address in case recall letters or service bulletins are released. Look in your owner's manual for the 800 number, or contact a dealership or mechanic.

NHTSA (National Highway Transportation and Safety Administration) has a free web site and 800-number for "safety-related" or "crucial" bulletins and recalls on all vehicles. Look for the federal government to get involved with oil sludge in the future if and/or when this problem gets worse.

Ask your mechanic to check for updated parts or repair procedures that are related to the oiling, cooling or PCV (positive crankcase ventilation) system. For instance: Toyota has a little-known, updated valve cover replacement part for the V-6 engine ($520) to increase PCV system efficiency.

The bottom line on sludge damage
Modern cars are very complicated machines, and a huge financial investment. Research your car make and model BEFORE you buy or lease. Remember--as manufacturers struggle to balance environmental and cost pressures, they make changes that work FOR THEM but call for closer attention from YOU.

Even small changes can make a difference:

Change your oil every 3,000 miles regardless of how many days it has been. Insist that the shop write down the mileage and VIN on the receipt.
Make sure the shop that services your car uses the highest quality oil (brand name, full synthetic). Synthetic oil adds only $16.00 to $30.00 to an oil change. Read why synthetic prevents sludge build-up>
Ask for a high-quality oil filter. The cost difference is less than $2.00.
Replace the PCV valve (if equipped) every 30,000 miles.
Maintain the cooling system with fresh anti-freeze mixed 50/50 with distilled water only every 2-3 years or 20,000 to 30,000 miles.
If you're on a budget
Your car is an important asset that can last longer with good maintenance:

Avoid buying car models that have very unusual oil sludge problems.
Change the oil every 3,000 miles.
On any vehicle, if you can't afford synthetic oil, check your owner's manual and insist on the correct weight of quality oil.
Buy high-quality oil filters on sale and bring them to your oil change.
You can change the PCV valve yourself, or have it changed with the 30,000-mile coolant service. But remember, coolant is best changed by a technician so they can dispose of the fluid properly.
Keep receipts for all your maintenance, even self-maintenance.
Find out more
Feel free to email Norris if you have any questions about oil sludge and your car.

Read a letter about oil sludge research from a reader in Canberra, Australia >>

Online sources about motor oil and oil sludge
NOTE: Second Opinion does not endorse or co-sponsor any of these sites. These links are for consumer information only.

Center for Auto Safety - Oil Sludge http://www.autosafety.org/getcat.php?cid=28
EPA website on oil and oil recycling
http://www.epa.gov/epaoswer/non-hw/muncpl/oil.htm
NHTSA Clearinghouse
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems/
Dodge Durango sludge http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/dodge_dur_oil.html
Volkswagen sludge http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/vw_sludge.html
Lexus sludge http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/lexus.html
Hyundai sludge http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/hyundai_sludge.html
Toyota sludge http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/toyota_engine.html



Posted 25 September 2005
© by Norris Schleeter and Melanie McCalmont

We are happy to authorize reprints of this article. Please contact us.
Back Yard Mechanic:

Post all the info you choose re sludge.

Can you justify Charlene Blake's lies?

Or is this another attempt to deflect attention from her compulsive lying??

My beef is only with Charlene Blake's lies.

She continues to post lies here.

Charlene Blake also posts lies in other sites.

This time she got caught.

Then she hides those lies with meaningless rhetoric.

You also hide them with information which in no way excuses her lies.

End of story.
Silverfox, you have a "beef" with me. OK. Fine.

My online Toyota engine oil sludge petition represents thousands of Toyota owners who have a "beef" with Toyota.

The deleted postings on the petition represent *active sabotage* attempts by someone using the same language as you. You know, the "bluff and bluster" and "innuendo and inference" alliterations. Odd, don't you think?

I was told by Clarence Ditlow at the Center for Auto Safety in Washington, D.C. that the numbers of signatories on my petition is "significant." He should know since he has been in the business of auto consumer advocacy for decades now, and he has worked closely with Ralph Nader.

Together, Clarence Ditlow and Ralph Nader wrote a great book called "The Lemon Book" which is a must-read for any vehicle owner. The book does need to be updated to include all the online ways that consumers can fight back when there are injustices, though.

Silverfox, I take it that you would love to see my petition vanish? for all the Toyota sludge victims to simply go quietly away? for all the articles and postings by very concerned Toyota owners to disappear (as happened when several sites FULL of Toyota sludge victim postings were hacked and permanently disabled)?

Toyota needs you, Silverfox, to defend it against all those pesky Toyota owners who just don't know how to properly maintain their iron-clad (NOT!) vehicles! Little 'ole Toyota needs someone like you to frighten or intimidate these owners away from speaking out like I have! It needs you to put those Toyota owners like Backyard mechanic's dad in their places...make them feel they have no options but to give in to the corporate bullying.

Toyota calls this "Customer-Generated Media" management, doesn't it? Isn't there someone in charge of this new forum for Toyota owners to speak out? Gotta get a lid on it, don't you? Must keep the PR spin intact! Wouldn't want anyone else to be successful in organizing the dissatisfied Toyota owners, would you?

I am here to tell you, Silverfox, that Toyota owners have revealed to me that TOYOTA has lied to THEM...big time! Until you have spoken to as many Toyota owners as I have (via postings, e-mail, phone, etc.), you cannot relate.

Feel free to come here for the sole purpose of attacking me personally. It won't change the truth. I am not an anonymous poster who has created yet another user name in order to discredit someone speaking out about Toyota engine oil sludge. I am and will continue to be pro-consumer.

Charlene Blake
cblake@erols.com
Toyota Owners Unite for Resolution: Engine Oil Sludge
http://www.petitiononline.com/TMC2003/petition.html
Silverfox

The title of this thread is toyota engine sludge. That is what those articles are about.It is not about Charlene no matter how hard you try to change that fact.

Second, my 2 articles were found with a google search and took all of 10 seconds to find. There were literally dozens more I could have posted.

Third, these articles do not hide her lies, quite the contrary. They only show how widespread the problem is, far more than the 3,000 Toyota is admitting to.


If you wish to continue to champion toyota in the face of overwhelming evidence that is your choice. You keep asking for proof but offer none in return. If you can offer proof that this is all bull please do so with something a little stronger than liar liar liar. It only hurts your cause.

You clearly have some personal issues with Charlene and as such those comments should be kept private. It certainly doesn't belong here. I have said all Im going to on this particular subject.

Buy Honda, They are #1!!!
Oh, I get it now. You wish to discredit me so that no one will believe that the petition is bona fide and currently applicable?

You hope that when sludge-affected Toyota owners do a google search for information that they will read your libelous statements about me and discount the *current* importance of documentation in the Toyota/Lexus sludge matter.

Won't happen. I'm not the one that got Toyota in this mess. It did it on its own. I am certainly not the only outspoken Toyota owner, and based on Toyota's actions, I won't be the last. Hey, just go to ripoffreport.com to see what I'm talking about!

PLEASE, if you experience Toyota engine oil sludge, post your experience online. If you have note failed emissions testing, a thrown engine rod, or a spontaneous engine fire associated with sludge, then file online owner reports with the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, the Center for Auto Safety (tell Mr. Ditlow that I referred you), and ConsumerAffairs.com (read all the angry Toyota owner accounts there!).

Proper documentation should start with a CERTIFIED letter to formally notify Toyota. No one knows just how Toyota keeps count of the sludge victims. Seems to be quite the mystery! Seems owner after owner after owner has simply been coaxed into trading in or selling their Toyota sludgemobiles before any formal letter-writing is done!

Backyard mechanic is correct in deducing that the numbers are far more than Toyota reports. This is a FACT! No one has recorded all the Toyota owner transactions after Toyota sludge crippled their engines. Many were scared into dumping their Toyota sludgemobiles after being intimidated by Toyota dealerships. The number of Toyota-reported cases of Toyota engine sludge is grossly underestimated. Period.

Check all the statements made by Toyota. The spokespersons said "very small" from day one. They have never bothered (maybe intentionally refrained from it?) to update that number post SPA and CSP.

One thing my petition and postings have done is to encourage the affected Toyota owners to DOCUMENT, especially with Toyota. Naturally, Toyota isn't interested in documentation that shows Toyota engine oil sludge in the wake of proper maintenance.

The AERA came out and hinted about this problem years ago. It clearly stated that the condition of engine oil sludge in Toyotas was noted even with proper oil changes. Toyota owners have been documenting this ever since, too.

Silverfox, your personal vendetta against me (you stated the same here more than once!) is misplaced in this forum. It has done little to deter Toyota engine oil sludge victims from reaching out to those who may have more information. Are you perhaps worried that current Toyota owners will be looking for this information? Well, you are right; they already are...have been well beyond the arbitrary 2002 Toyota cut-off.

Charlene Blake
cblake@erols.com
Toyota Owners Unite for Resolution: Engine Oil Sludge
http://www.petitiononline.com/TMC2003/petition.html.
Just so others know, there are currently over 5,000 postings in a CarSpace.com (formerly Edmund's Town Hall) under the topic "Toyota Engine Oil Sludge."

I just thought I would do a google search to see what is new. I found quickly that a 2003 Camry owner with less than 75,000 miles (typical in these cases) has gotten engine oil sludge. The oil changes were done every 3,000 to 5,000 miles...better than recommended.

I have noted many 2003 Toyota owners have come to my petition to place an entry. Did the 2002 model year end Toyota engine oil sludge? When Toyota stopped making the one Toyota Camry 4-cylinder engine, did things change? OR...is Toyota engine oil sludge STILL a problem?

Do the research. YOU be the judge.

Charlene Blake
cblake@erols.com
Toyota Owners Unite for Resolution: Engine Oil Sludge
http://www.petitiononline.com/TMC2003/petition.html
HELLO AGAIN CHARLENE BLAKE.

No, I don't have a personal vendetta against you, or anyone else.

I just don't think it's right when someone lies to make a point--like you do.

It's personal thing--I have a beef with anyone who tries that same stunt.

So I challenge you on your lies.

Nor am I trying to discredit your petition.

You managed that all by yourself, by saying there were 2400 signatures when there were not.

Oh, by the way. You just lied again.

Over 5000 posts in Edmunds Car Space re sludge?

Implying what--that 5000 different people posted there?

Check again Charlene Blake--most of that entire forum is comprised of (at best) 50 or 60 of the same posters going back and forth on the issue.

Check again Charlene Blake.

You need to do something about your lying--it seems addictive.
CHARLENE BLAKE LIES ONCE MORE!!

Someone with an 03 Toyota signs on her petition.

One of those 2400 signatures that aren't all there perhaps??

Charlene claims it's a legit complaint.

Well, how did Charlene Blake manage to verify it as legit--when the phone number accompanying it doesn't exist??

Ms. Blake, you really must do something about these lies.

Have you verified ANY of the 2400 signatures--which, as we now know, aren't all there?
I am a victim of 99 camry and the engine failed at 38,000 miles in september 2002 and Toyota didn't pay any penny to repair. It costed me 5,400 dollars to repair the same. I came to know about this just now and saw everybody bashing about Charles. I don't see any bad mouthing from him. As a victim of (once known for quality) toyota camry and paid over 5000 dollars. I am as mad as Charles and unfortunately I didn't get paid for my repairs by Toyota. Any suggestions on how I can fight over this as the 8 years is over and didn't see this petition or never received the glove copy for oil gel from toyota as I have changed my address few times in the last 5 years
Agreed. My credibility on the subject of Toyota engine oil sludge is well-established. My credibility to gather auto owner information is also well-established. My efforts have been noted in Automotive News, Business Week, as well as other online forums. I've been following this matter since late 2000; it is still a problem for vehicle owners.

Vehicle owners like Ram_Camry_Victim have asked for information; they deserve a legitimate response. It is inappropriate for someone who disagrees with the facts to lambast the messengers.

Charlene Blake
http://www.petitiononline.com/TMC2003/petition.html
quote:
Originally posted by Ram_Camry_Victim:
I am a victim of 99 camry and the engine failed at 38,000 miles in september 2002 and Toyota didn't pay any penny to repair. It costed me 5,400 dollars to repair the same. I came to know about this just now and saw everybody bashing about Charles. I don't see any bad mouthing from him. As a victim of (once known for quality) toyota camry and paid over 5000 dollars. I am as mad as Charles and unfortunately I didn't get paid for my repairs by Toyota. Any suggestions on how I can fight over this as the 8 years is over and didn't see this petition or never received the glove copy for oil gel from toyota as I have changed my address few times in the last 5 years


Ram_Camry_Victim, you are far from alone. Many of the Toyota sludged engines occurred well inside the new vehicle warranty period. I know of some owners with only 12,000-15,000 miles when they first experienced sludge. One owner of a Rav4 had fuel in the oil and metal shavings at under 1,000 miles on the odometer (why aren't the Rav4 vehicles included in the Toyota CSP, many want to know?).

First, you must send Toyota a certified letter to formally notify it. The 3,200 sludge victims that Toyota acknowledges publicly don't count those who traded-in or never took the time to notify it. Do you suppose this estimate is a gross underestimate? Of course it is! Why, there are thousands who have signed the petition alone and most of these signatures have occurred beginning *one year after the CSP was implemented*. There are plenty of owners with vehicles not within the group Toyota acknowledges are sludge-prone.

File online reports, Ram_Camry_Victim, with the NHTSA and CAS (Center for Auto Safety). Call the hotline for Toyota sludge and ask it what Toyota is going to do for you as you were completely in the dark about the matter. It didn't help you when all the thousands of postings about this matter were stripped from internet searches. There were over 10,000 postings on this subject on "The Complaint Station for Toyota" but the site was maliciously hacked until it went down permanently back in 2004. Someone wanted this site down and down fast! Guess which company was number one in the number of complaints recorded there? Yes, Toyota was #1 on this complaint site at the time it went down. All this was due to engine oil sludge...

Ram_Camry_Victim, I am not surprised that you did not receive the infamous engine oil gelation letter. Many Toyota owners didn't---even those who have *not* changed addresses as you have. Mr. Bruce C. Ertmann, a Toyota executive I met with in May of 2002, said that the mailings were halted after lots of owners complained about the harsh, finger-pointing tone in the first letter. Then, Toyota issued a second, "softer" letter which still admonished Toyota owners for NEGLECT of their own engines. Not all the Toyota owners got this letter either, however. (It is interesting to note that Mr. Ertmann is now executive of "Consumer-Generated Media." Does that mean he has a hand in manipulating what is said about Toyota by Toyota owners???)

You could find the CSP information on Toyota's website intially, but it didn't take long for this information to be put in a location not easily found by Toyota owners. Many Toyota owners began to write to me saying that Toyota wasn't honoring the CSP at all behind the scenes. Engine flushes were being done, not engine replacements as promised by Toyota publicly. One Toyota spokesperson said that owners had to show at least one oil change receipt in a year's time, but dealerships made owners produce *every single receipt* before they would consider resolving the matter! Toyota owners have had to jump through hoops to get justice in this matter---and much of the time, they report that Toyota has loopholes to allow lack of follow through. No, Ram_Camry_Victim, you are not the only angry Toyota owner out there, rest assured.

If I were you, I would expect Toyota to resolve your matter. If it doesn't, I would enlist the help of any consumer reporter in your area that will listen to you. Imagine how many Toyota owners are slipping through the same cracks that you have slipped through! For Toyota, better you take the financial hit than it---it isn't willing to give up those record profits no matter what your pain isFrown

The facts speak for themselves as back yard mechanic has highlighted. This issue isn't about me; I am simply a messenger (well researched one). Can you imagine that I was accused of spreading this HOAX that is Toyota engine oil sludge and was attacked viciously on Edmund's Town Hall back in January of 2001? Do you suppose Toyota enlisted help in bashing the truth-seekers? Can you imagine the uproar when I stumbled on the "Engine Oil Sludge Policy" link on the Toyota Financial Services web page---in plain view for all to see???? Well, that link was stripped off the web page within 48 hours of my exposure of it! Yes, TFS had a SLUDGE POLICY long before Toyota initiated the "Customer Support Program for Engine Oil Gelation" in February 2002 (and again in April of 2002)! FACT. Period.

Ram_Camry_Victim, please keep us posted of the status of your case.

Charlene Blake
Last edited by charleneblake
Considering the number of old Toyota engines including 4 banger Camrys on road, the sludge issue here is being blown out of proportion. Actually VW have had more catastrophic sludge related failures and their solution is to use only a particular synthetic oil so it goes to show as others here have been indicating that apart from engine design and poor maintenance and driving habits, its also the oil being used has bearing on this issue.
Ms. Blake, there are number of very serious inconsistencies in your post.

I hesitate to call them outright lies, but they come awfully close!!!

First of all, you consistently respond to vague and anonymous complaints on the web without asking for any verification, and on the basis of very little history or fact---why not??
Do you accept everything you see on the web without any questions, and arbitrarily assume everything is above board?
How do you know any of what you see is true and accurate?
To make the accusations you make with no real proof is wrong, and it's probably correct that you're fully aware of that.
Yet you always choose use any and all anonymous stories as propaganda for your ongoing campaign of misinformation and manipulation.

You say in your post that you know of "some" owners whose cars sludged within 10 to 15,000 miles.
Pretty vague statement---and have you actually verified that any of these "some" owners you "know of" are being truthful?
I think not, and I think you have kept that claim deliberately vague to hide the real truth!!

Then you go on to speak of "thousands" who have signed a petition--we assume you are referring to your petition, right?
That being the case, there aren't "thousands" of signatures in it---in fact there are less than 2000 signatures, because over 600 "signatures" are merely blank spaces being counted as "signatures".
You also fail to mention that your petition has been running for over 6 years---therefor it is averaging fewer than 375 signatures per year.
Is that something anyone can really brag about?

Next you talk about a site which existed for a short time during 03 and 04.
It was called "Complaint Station", and you claim there are "over 10,000 postings" in it, and suggest that it was "mysteriously hacked until it went down permanently".
Again, a gross misstatement of fact and deliberately vague misdirection.
That site was posted in 10,000 times all right, but truth be told it was dominated by less than 30 or 40 different individuals going back and forth about the sludge issue.
Mostly, the site deteriorated into a few individuals attempting to out insult one another--it was a totally gross experience and you know it!!
In fact, you were among the most prolific of those individuals posting there--you appeared there over 2000 times yourself!!
PLUS---the site was closed because the owners were unable to attract sufficient paid sponsors to keep it going.
The owners shut it down because of lack of funding, not because of any "hacking"!!
This was clearly stated in their parent website at the time.

You went on to rant about how "badly you were treated" by a site called Edmunds Town Hall.
Now now Ms. Blake, you know full well that's not the least bit true.
You broke the clearly stated rules at that site, and were banned for that reason and that reason alone.
You were posting under different usernames, and you got caught at it and paid the price, no more, no less.
And those who were there supposedly supporting your cause were a few very foul mouthed individuals who got kicked off with you because they were rude and insulting others who questioned your comments at the time

Ms. Blake, throughout your post, comments you made have a common denominator---they are all unsupported and vague inferences.
This is, and has been your trade mark style as long as you have talked about the sludge issue--no truths, just distortions and inferences.
There is no credibility in the piece.
As said earlier, I hesitate to call them lies, but they come awfully close!!
By definition, nothing of what you say can (nor should it be) believed!!!
Last edited by silverfox
quote:
Originally posted by Gurkha:
Considering the number of old Toyota engines including 4 banger Camrys on road, the sludge issue here is being blown out of proportion. Actually VW have had more catastrophic sludge related failures and their solution is to use only a particular synthetic oil so it goes to show as others here have been indicating that apart from engine design and poor maintenance and driving habits, its also the oil being used has bearing on this issue.


You are absolutely correct in what you stated!!

Yet Ms. Blake NEVER mentions about other automakers, nor does she EVER say anything about the many other possibilities relating to sludge causes.

More reasons to question what she has posted here (and several hundred other sites with the same vague and misleading propaganda!!)
Rodney, what is your advice to Ram_Camry_Victim? Should his significant issue be ignored because SilverFox is attempting character assassination?

In fact, Toyota itself has admitted to the engine oil sludge tendency in millions of its own vehicles. There have been numerous articles about it and even more consumer letters written to various agencies and consumer reporters.

This discussion is about Toyota engine oil sludge. Period. The matter has yet to be satisfactorily resolved according to thousands of Toyota owners.

There is no personal vendetta in wanting consumer-oriented justice for that. Companies that bully their own customers eventually hear about it, don't they. In this case, Toyota has heard from thousands and thousands of its customers, and they happen to be quite upset about it.

Toyota owner experiences with engine oil sludge are welcome in this discussion, and they should not feel intimidated by someone who is bent on defamation rather than sticking to the topic. Nor should they feel compelled to stifle their thoughts just because someone wants to throw the baby out with the bath waterWink
Right!! I agree.

This forum is supposed to be about sludge.

Whenever anything is said on that topic, it is hoped it would be the truth; it shouldn't be used dishonestly, nor should it be used as propaganda by anyone.

Strictly speaking, contributors shouldn't tell lies.

Ms. Blake is not telling the truth by any means.

That has been shown time and time again.

She has lied repeatedly in her many appearances on the web.

It's very clear that Ms. Blake is using the forum as a propaganda tool to promote her crusade against an automaker.

If, as Ms. Blake claims, she wishes to be seen as a consumer activist, then she should start by being truthful and forthright in doing so.

Sincere activists with a genuine causes don't act that way, and don't need to.

Instead, her efforts are characterized by lies, misrepresentations of fact, distortions, and inflammatory comments with no substance.

That is why I choose to challenge Ms. Blake, and I will continue to do so until she becomes honest and forthright in her crusades.



Here are two more graphic examples of her dishonesty; these appear in her latest post(s).

First, she posts under a different username in the Rodney Fitzpatrick piece, above.
That post and her follow on post originate from the same location, and within minutes of each other!
This is no coincidence; it happens repeatedly in her activity on the net. (This is one reason why she was banned from Edmunds!!)

Secondly, she references "Toyota admits Millions of their cars are succeptible to sludge".
Nothing of the sort has ever been said by Toyota.
Yet another bald faced lie!!!!

These are two more very clear examples of the dishonest tactics she uses to publicize her crusades.
Last edited by silverfox
Well, I certainly agree it's a garbage discussion, and probably should be discontinued.

That said, as long as Ms. Blake (if that's her real name) continues to spew forth with lies, inferences, baseless accuations, or continues to use this site as a propaganda tool for her trumped up crusades, I will continue to agressively challenge her.
Re: Engine Sludging with Premium Synthetic Engine motor oil.
I had a 4 cyl 16 valve. 5 speed Camry Wagon 23,000 miles diagnosed with a engine knock. On its third oil change.
Toyota Service stated the reason for the problem was the oil being used. A 100% Premium Synthetic.
I had complete oil service records, and with the Synthetic Oil Companies support, after months of written and verbal discussions.
Toyota agreed to do the repair with their top mechanic on the repair.
With a signed inclusion that I may have to foot the bill if it was a oil related problem.
The mechanics repair found faulty valve train components,the parts were replaced at Toyota's cost. The Dealers Top Mechanics repair sub notes were "this was the cleanest block he had worked on", "no oil related concerns"
The mechanic pulled me on the side at the time of vehicle pick up asking me what was the brand of oil I used, the service writer / service management had not informed him.

To all concerned, which ever side of the fence your on, be a consumer with armed facts, and service documentation. Very few consumers with out of warranty engines receive due compensation and too many consumers within warranty fall into the voided category.
quote:
Originally posted by AutoMarine:
Re: Engine Sludging with Premium Synthetic Engine motor oil.
I had a 4 cyl 16 valve. 5 speed Camry Wagon 23,000 miles diagnosed with a engine knock. On its third oil change.
Toyota Service stated the reason for the problem was the oil being used. A 100% Premium Synthetic.
I had complete oil service records, and with the Synthetic Oil Companies support, after months of written and verbal discussions.
Toyota agreed to do the repair with their top mechanic on the repair.
With a signed inclusion that I may have to foot the bill if it was a oil related problem.
The mechanics repair found faulty valve train components,the parts were replaced at Toyota's cost. The Dealers Top Mechanics repair sub notes were "this was the cleanest block he had worked on", "no oil related concerns"
The mechanic pulled me on the side at the time of vehicle pick up asking me what was the brand of oil I used, the service writer / service management had not informed him.

To all concerned, which ever side of the fence your on, be a consumer with armed facts, and service documentation. Very few consumers with out of warranty engines receive due compensation and too many consumers within warranty fall into the voided category.



GOOD ADVICE!!!
We see too many so-called "Complaint Stories" where there is only vague reference to proper maintenance.
Most of the time there's no reference to any maintenance at all.
IMO, if people have solid documentation to show they did everything according to the book, there shouldn't be any problem, and there usually isn't.
Those who expect the most who provide the least, and then complain when they don't get it, are the ones we hear from most often in these forums.
See http://www.petitiononline.com/TMC2003/petition.html for almost 3,000 Toyota owner signatories. Most owners voice anger at Toyota for denying their claims under the "Customer Support Program for Engine Oil Gelation."

See http://www.toyotaoilgel.com for important information on the CSP and the class action lawsuit.

Read http://www.uc2.blogspot.com to see what Toyota does for customers with major problems.

Go to YouTube.com and search for "Toyota Sludge." See how the problem started and link to the sites under "more info."

Follow "toyotasludge" at Twitter.com for updates on the Toyota engine oil sludge matter.

Watch for the check engine light, blue smoke, and increased oil consumption as all are signs of impending engine oil sludge.

Many emissions control components are replaced before or after Toyota engine oil sludge.

Contact the NHTSA and the Center for Auto Safety to file vehicle owner reports. Tell your experience at ConsumerAffairs.com and RipOffReport.com.

Charlene Blake
charleneblake2011@gmail.com
Last edited by charleneblake
jonny-b, if you read the websites I cited above, you would know why the engine oil sludge matter is current at Toyota.

You forget...I have no malice intent toward Toyota. I am Toyota owner benevolent.

Does there need to be a motive if consumer justice is desired?

Why are you, silverfox, and others determined to defame in an effort to distract from the real issue?

What you have posted is libelous. You might want to consider taking that statement down.

I stand by my postings. They are accurate. This matter is unresolved to date.

Charlene Blake
cblake@erols.com
charleneblake@cox.net
I have been in the automobile business for almost 40 years and have found that pcv system has lots to do with sludge..if the crankcase is not ventilated properly, then moisture can build in the engine helping to create sludge. And as another post said, the extended oil changes don't help especially when most drivers just run a few blocks around town at a time never allowing the oil to properly heat and evaporate the moisture
quote:
Originally posted by wylchyl:
I have been in the automobile business for almost 40 years and have found that pcv system has lots to do with sludge..if the crankcase is not ventilated properly, then moisture can build in the engine helping to create sludge. And as another post said, the extended oil changes don't help especially when most drivers just run a few blocks around town at a time never allowing the oil to properly heat and evaporate the moisture


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This is probably the most sensible thing I have heard in a while,and very,very true.

This is exactly the reason why I use Synthetic oil that has the lowest possible NOACK volatility numbers.

Many of today's cars don't even have a PCV-valve that can be replaced because the system is now sort of integrated. Imagine clogging that type of system up!

I have found that highly volatile lubes(quickie lube),are used with poor quality gasoline, has become a recipe for disaster in many cases,if not all.

If motorists would only run synthetic Motor oil with a volatility(NOACK) of 4-7%, run top tier gas,and do a few freeway runs on occasion,there would be a lot less sludge out there,if any.

This not only will keep the engine clean,but keep it "like new" for as long as possible,which in turn......keeps it clean for as long as possible. It's a very healthy pattern.

Once the bad pattern(varnish/sludge-wear-varnish/sludge-wear/occurs).......it's rebuild time. So it's best to avoid bad patterns in the first place.

Even when True synthetic does evaporate in very hot weather/climates and sees long hard engine runs over the longer haul,and many,many thousands of miles, it seems to only lay down a very thin non-varnish type of "pure" oil film that is harmless and doesn't clog or coat/layer up.
Last edited by captainkirk

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